1. That’s great news about Dr. Hovind. BTW, I obtained journalist Dave MacPherson’s book “The Rapture Plot” which is an “encyclopedia” on how the pretrib rapture was first originated and taught and how it was sneaked into existing churches and picked up by Scofield. A lot of bookstores have banned it, so it would be nice if Bro. Hovind could carry it and make it available to others. What is shocking is all the dishonesty in the pretrib movement (Google MacPherson’s “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty”). Lord bless you.

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   • Thank you Sarah for your input and encouragement! It would be great if you would share some concise quotes from “The Rapture Plot” book in further comments on this page.

     I’m praying and hoping that Michael F. Hoggard, an independent Baptist preacher I like, would become convinced that pre-trib rapture is false. I think he is open to the issue and considering the Scriptures I shared with him.

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     • I do not appreciate you using my website to attack a person who I haven’t even wrote about on this article or even this website! If you have something to tell him, why not say it directly? If course he’s wrong about pre-trib rapture, and I’ve dealt with that extensively on this website, but the alien thing? The Bible talks about humans, devils, demons, angels, God, spirits, not aliens.

       And I do not think it’s nice to try to hide your identity and using false email addresses.. What credibility does it give you to do so? None in my opinion. Proving things with Bible is cool. Yes, you do have a point about pre-rapture doctrine not being Biblical, but you cannot prove from the Bible that there are aliens from other planets. Tom just wrote saying, “To say that there are alien life nullifies Genesis and the Bible as it speaks of demons and the sons of God.” I agree with him.

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     • BTW, it’s spelled “rapture” not rupture. I did offer Michael Hoggard directly the Scriptures that indicate the Rapture is after the Tribulation of the Saints, and that the Tribulation is 3 and a half years. He listened to me and did not try to refute or contradict me.

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       • I know preachers like Michael Hoggard of http://watchmanvideobroadcast.com/ who would strongly disagree that there are errors in the KJV. Pastor Hoggard discovered mathematical codes in the KJV that other versions probably do not have. One example is “Jesus Christ” “book” together with the plural form “books”, and “son of man” all appear exactly 196 times. This is 7 X 7 X 4, significant numbers for those interested in numerology. Another man I respect, Al Neal has devolved an interesting Bible code. It works well only using KJV or translations based on KJV like the AKJV (not NKJV)

         About the name of God: I’ve heard things about this before and recently it’s been brought to my attention of a movement called “Sacred Name”. They say that words like “God”, “Lord”, “Jesus” and “Christ” are of pagan origin and not in the Bible. But Michael Hoggard set me right on that and exposed the Sacred Name cult for what it is: Legalism and a throwback to Judaism. Sacred Name people loath the translation of Philippians 2:10,11 in KJV:  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. I’d rather stick with the KJV than follow those Sacred Name cult people. They are trying to change the Bible to fit their own interpretations. As you said, there is no private interpretation of Scripture, but the Sacred Name people sure have their own.

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2. [Here’s something I found on the web. It also mentions Dave’s book.]

   Pretrib Rapture Pride

   by Bruce Rockwell

   Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression that they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
   Ice knows that his own mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, was unable to find anyone holding to pretrib before early 19th century British teacher John Darby – and Walvoord called Darby and his Brethren followers “the early pretribulationists” (RQ, pp. 160-62). By claiming to find “imminence” in the 1st and 2nd century Fathers, Ice knows that his followers can change “imminence” in their mind to “pretrib” – but Ice is reluctant to admit that whenever any of those Fathers seemed to hold to “imminence, it was because they thought they were then in the tribulation and were near the end of it!
   Google “Famous Rapture Watchers” to see the rapture view that Walvoord said “has long been a common doctrine held by the majority of the church” (RQ, p. 127). Note how those unsurpassed lexicon and Greek grammar experts interpreted Rev. 3:10 which pretrib promoters often claim is the greatest Biblical proof for an any-moment pretrib rapture.
   Journalist/historian Dave MacPherson has focused since 1968 on the pretrib rapture’s long-covered-up, 183-year-old history. His habit has been to examine Darby’s earliest writings and then painstakingly search for the earliest occurrences of certain words and phrases like “coming for,” “coming with,” “rapture,” “imminence,” “any moment,” etc. Since several of Darby’s contemporaries have at times been nominated for the title of “Pretrib Rapture Originator,” MacPherson has done the same laborious word-and-phrase search in the earliest writings of Macdonald, Norton, Irving, etc.
   Since many pretrib promoters favor the King James Version of the Bible, it’s interesting that the other writings of the KJV translators that are in the British Library in London (where MacPherson has researched) don’t have even a hint of a pretrib rapture! Is it possible that Ice and other pretrib merchandisers have found proof of pretrib in the KJV that even the KJV translators couldn’t find?
   Pretrib didn’t flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby “explanatory notes” in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield’s criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book “The Praise of Folly” which is available online.
   Even some well-known evangelical schools have played fast and loose with pretrib. MacPherson’s “The Rapture Plot” – the most documented and accurate work on pretrib dispensationalism’s history (Google “Scholars Weigh My Research”) – includes on p. 222 Biola’s original doctrinal statement which stated that the “Lord Jesus is coming again to his earth, personally, bodily, and visibly.” Later on, those who evidently felt superior to the founders added this Scofield-like “explanatory note” which says that “the return of the Lord for His Church will be premillennial” and “before the Tribulation.” (Also Google “Pretrib Hypocrisy.”)
   Although Ice’s mentor John Walvoord couldn’t find any pretrib teacher before 1830, Ice has been “honoring” Walvoord by promoting some pseudo-scholars who claim they’ve found pre-1830 existence of pretrib! (Google MacPherson’s “Deceiving and Being Deceived” for the details.)
   Ice, BTW, has a “Ph.D” issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn’t authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he’s working on another “Ph.D” via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice’s scholarliness, Google “Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” and “be careful in polemics – Peripatetic Learning.”
   Another pretrib trafficker, Hal Lindsey, asserts on p. 124 in “The Late Great Planet Earth” that the famous Egyptian Sphinx has the head of a woman even though encyclopedias say it’s the head of a man!
   In a Google article “Pretrib Expert John Walvoord Melts Ice,” Ice’s mentor demolishes Ice’s desperate assertion that the “falling away” in II Thess. 2 is a pretrib rapture! (Ice should have said that the TEACHING of such a rapture is a falling away!)
   Other Google pieces helping to make a shocking mosaic of pretrib include “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “X-raying Margaret,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Wily Jeffrey,” “Thieves’ Marketing,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “Catholics Did NOT Invent the Rapture,” “The Real Manuel Lacunza,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “Open Letter to Todd Strandberg,” “Pretrib Rapture: A Staged Event,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism,” “Chuck Missler – Copyist,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrets,” and an earthquake titled “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.”
   Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?

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   • Thank you, Johnny, for your well researched input! I’d like to add that the reason many pretrib promoters seem to favor the King James Version of the Bible is really because they are studying from the Scofield edition of the King James Bible! It’s because of the notes that Cyrus I. Scofield put in the margins of his edition of the KJV that caused them to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture!

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3. Posting an email address on a website invites spam and junk mail. The form sends comments to my email address. I am not trying to hide my identity by not posting my email address. I consider using an invalid email address to be dishonest. If WordPress could identify your yahoo.com address to be false, none of your comments would have appeared on this page or the other one.

   All the knowledge I need to know that is most important is in the Scriptures. I follow the Bible and listen to those who I consider to have a credible testimony, people who died for their truth telling, people like Bill Cooper who confessed he was wrong about the alien issue. If you want to believe there are aliens, that’s your choice, but I see no merit to believe in aliens and can see harm and delusion for those who do believe in their existence. The Antichrist may appear as an alien and deceive the entire world by the fact people consider him to be an alien.

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4. pre – trib, mid – trib and post – trib are all correct. There are three raptures.
   the old testament is a shadow of the new and there are three times Israel are to appear before the lord, at the feast of passover, pentecost, and tabernacles.
   The harvest have three parts, first fruits, main harvest and gleanings.
   First fruits of barley Rev. 4:1, Main harvest Rev. 7:9 and gleanings Rev.11:12.
   Love your teaching on creation, may God Bless, In Christ Bill K
   PS I have written a book on this if you would like one free, E-mail Address.

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   • 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

     30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

     31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
     — Matthew 24:29-31

     The Bible doesn’t teach 3 Raptures, only one.

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     • 1 rapture, 3 parts. God tends to do things in 3. A trinity of trinities, if you will. 1) First fruits. MATTHEW 27:51-53. “And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the Earth did quake, and The Rock’s did rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the Saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city and appeared on too many.” This is the the 1st part of the 1st ressurection which those who take part in will be blessed (Rev 20:6) There are 2 ressurections; one unto life (Jesus said “I am the ressurection AND the life) and one ressurection unto damnantion. (John 5:29) 2) HARVEST – then there is the 2nd part of the ressurection into life, which is the harvest ( the Body of Christ –
       those dead in Christ which will rise first, and those who are alive in Christ which will be caught up in the air AT AN HOUR WHICH NO MAN KNOWETH) 3) GLEANINGS – Christ comes back for the gleaning, the 3rd part of the 1st ressurection, the ressurection unto life, Jesus is coming to meet in the air the TRIBES AND ELECT…THE JEWS (12 tribes – there are no tribes in the Body of Christ) that will go through half the tribulation who finally believe that Jesus is the Son of God and be raptured up before the wrath of God is poured out. They KNOW when this will happen because Daniel is prophesy for the Jews. Time of JACOBS TROUBLE. This is why it is so important to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH 2 TIM 2:15. dispensational study of the scripture is very important. Many blessings.

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       • It was John Nelson Darby who invented the concept of dispensations of God’s dealings with man. This is a relatively new doctrine not held by the Church till the 19th century. Darby vaunted himself up above everybody, all the men of God of his day, including Charles Spurgeon who didn’t like him. It is helpful to study the history of doctrines in the church, and who they came from. I reject despensationalism knowing the source, an arrogant man who didn’t love his fellow brothers in Christ.

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   • Rapture People
     Jesus did not let Peter Flee/ Fly away from Rome
     HE sent him back to preach & be a Martyr
     Tha Anti Christ come first

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5. [Hi Bro. James. Found the following on the web. Pretribs like Ice claim Edwards was pretrib, but Edwards’ words here (which they’ve covered up) show that Edwards’ rapture was tied to the Matt. 24 coming! Lord bless & reward your faithfulness.]

   Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View

   by George Wilson

   In 1995, in a 24-page booklet on 18th century pastor Morgan Edwards, evangelist John Bray claimed that Edwards taught a pretrib rapture in his 1788 book titled “Two Academical Exercises….”
   Those echoing Bray include Thomas Ice who wrote “Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist.” Edwards’ 1788 work can be found on the internet.
   In order to claim that Edwards held to pretrib, candidates for the I-can-find-pretrib-earlier-in-church-history-than-you-can medal – including Bray, Ice, LaHaye, Frank Marotta etc. – have intentionally covered up Edwards’ “historicism,” his belief that the tribulation had already been going on for hundreds of years. (How can anyone in the tribulation go back in time and look for a pretrib rapture?)
   Here’s proof of Edwards’ historicism and its companion “day-year” theory which can view the 1260 tribulation “days” as “years.”
   On p. 14 Edwards described the Ottoman Empire (which was then already 400 years old) as the Rev. 13:11 “beast.” On p. 20 he defined “Antichrist” as the already 1000-year-old “popery” and the “succession of persons” known as “Popes” – his other Rev. 13 “beast.” He necessarily viewed Rev. 13’s 1260-day period as 1260 literal years in order to provide enough time for his two “beasts.”
   On p. 19, while discussing “the ministry of the witnesses” of Rev. 11, he allotted “about 204 years” for their “years to perform” – years impossible to fit into a 3.5-year period!
   What about Edwards’ rapture? On pp. 21-23 he wrote about “the appearing of the son of man in the clouds, coming to raise the dead saints and change the living, and to catch them up to himself….The signs of Christ’s appearing in the clouds will be extraordinary ‘wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes and famines,’ &. (Matth. xxiv. 6-8.)….The signs of his coming, in the heavens will be ‘the trump of God [I Thess. 4:16], vapor and smoke, which will darken the sun and moon [Matt. 24:29],’…and also cause those meteors called ‘falling stars’….
   Right after his combined rapture/advent (!), Edwards said: “And therefore, now, Antichrist…will…counterfeit the preceding wonders in heaven…causing ‘fire to come down from heaven’….And that godhead he will now assume, after killing the two witnesses….Now the great persecution of the Jews will begin…for time, times, and half a time….”
   Thomas Ice’s article on Edwards (listed at start) quoted only the first 27 words in the above quotation which end with “to himself” – and you can see why pretrib defender Ice stopped quoting there! (For an Ice-covered piece, Google “Pretrib Rapture Pride.”)
   Not only had most of Edwards’ historicist tribulation occurred before his combined rapture/advent, but incredibly his Antichrist kept raging for 3.5 years even after the Matt. 24 signs! No wonder his tutor advised him to correct his thesis!
   To read Edwards’ complete work, Google “[PDF] Two Academical Exercises…www.breadoflifebiblestudy.com.”
   For more info on Edwards, Google “McPherson Page (thebibletruth.org).” Also Google “Deceiving and Being Deceived” by historian Dave MacPherson.

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6. Two in the field, one taken, one left.
   Rev I will keep you OUT of the tribulation.
   1 Thes 4 At the sound of the trumpet, dead in christ rise first then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the Air.
   Later WE return with the Lord at the end of the Trib.
   As for Johnny above, the word for falling away can be taken as a DEPARTURE, it doesnt say from the faith or from the earth. Take your pick. Ask why Thessalonians was written, they thought they had missed the rapture…. dont be soon shaken that you missed it….!

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   • Sorry but I do not understand your point. Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

     “His elect” in Matthew 24:31 means ALL those who have called on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ to save them! Nobody but the unsaved, those who have not called on the Name of Jesus Christ will miss the rapture at the end of the tribulation of those days.

     Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

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     • Those who are in the tribulation which are unsaved and then they get saved are the elect you mentioned, not the church the Bride of Christ.

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7. Regardless of one’s position in the matter, the notion (or doctrine) of a pre-trib rapture was NOT conceived by a 15 year old Scottish girl (Margaret MacDonald).

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8. /Brother James. Just a little something I ran into on the surprising net./

   PRETRIB RAPTURE SCHOLARSHIP !

   How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 2:34,35 reveal that Jesus stays at the Father’s right hand in heaven until He leaves to destroy His foes at the second coming to earth. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven with the Father “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. (“The Rapture Question,” by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn’t dare to even list, in its scripture index, the above verses! The same Acts verses were also too hot for John Darby – the so-called “father of dispensationalism” – to list in the scripture index in his “Letters”!)
   Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The “rest” for “all them that believe” is also tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who’d be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the end of trib “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which Scofield views as Israel’s posttrib resurrection!) It’s amazing that the Olivet Discourse contains the “great commission” for the church but not even a hint of a pretrib rapture for the church!
   Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this “rapture” was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” [“gathering”] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!). Google “Walvoord Melts Ice.”
   Other Google articles on the 183-year-old pretrib rapture view include “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” and “Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View” – most by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (the most accurate and documented book on pretrib rapture history which is obtainable by calling 800.643.4645).

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   • Meh. Post trib doctine misses the fact that Christs bride, the Church will be without spot or wrinkle, impossible if she has been raped, mauled, starved and killed in the Great Tribulation. Nowhere in scripture does it say that the CHURCH, true followers of Christ, will endure the Great Trib. Further post trib doesnt differentiate between the catching away of the Bride and the Second Coming of Christ, judgment of the world.
     Rapture DOES appear in the Bible..latin for ‘caught up’ is rapture…1 Thes 4:14-17. Post tribbers that say Rapture isnt in the Bible are ill informed.

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     • Seriously? Do you think that “without spot or wrinkle” is referring to her physical appearance? Gold and silver are purified through fire! The haw wood and stubble in our lives is burned away through persecution. Persecution strips away our independence and pride.
       The flesh counts for nothing! God has no interest in saving our flesh. Do you not realize that the flesh is dead because of sin? Being persecuted and killed during the time of great tribulation is a privilege. They OVERCAME by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, LOVING NOT THEIR LIVES UNTO DEATH!
       Jesus defeated death by dying!
       And that is how WE overcome.
       And the Bible doesn’t differentiate between the catching away and the Second Coming either. Just because the differing accounts of the resurrection/rapture do not mention every single detail, does not mean they are different events, just as the differences between the events of the Gospels mean they are telling four separate stories. In the book of Zechariah, Jesus descends to the Mount of Olives and it splits in two. Nowhere does it say that He arrives on a white horse with His armies. Does that mean these two events are unrelated? If Revelation 4 mentions the rapture, where is the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet of God that Paul mentions. In the book of Zechariah, chapter 9 the Lord comes in judgment in the storms of the south, with lightning and God blows the Trumpet. Is this a different Trumpet than the one God blows in Paul’s account?
       Each account is told from a different point of view, and TOGETHER they give the whole picture. They are one event.

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     • there is need to understand what is the bride of Christ?

       first i agree with you that the bride of Christ is the Church, but the error of pre-tribs is to separate the church and Israel.

       the BRIDE = the CHURCH = the BODY OF CHRIST = the HOUSEHOLD OF ISRAEL

       Ephesians 3:5-6

       5 In past times human beings were not told this secret, but God has revealed it now by the Spirit to his holy apostles and prophets. 6 The secret is that by means of the gospel the Gentiles have a part with the Jews in God’s blessings; they are members of the same body and share in the promise that God made through Christ Jesus.
       GNT

       THE BODY OF CHRIST IS ONE BUT HAS MANY MEMBERS. ITS NOT TRUE THAT MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST ARE GENTILES AND NOT ISRAEL. EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES THE GOSPEL AND RECEIVES THE SPIRIT IS A SON OF GOD AND BY THAT SPIRIT IS BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY OF THE CHRIST. THIS IS SO WHETHER ONE IS A JEW OR GENTILE. IF WE AGREE THAT ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED DURING THE TRIBULATION SEE DANIEL 12:1-2 THEN ACCORDING TO PAUL THEY WILL BE BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY WHICH IS OF THE CHRIST.

       THE SCRIPTURE TEACHES THAT THE PROMISE WAS GIVEN TO ISRAEL AND GENTILE ARE CORE HEIRS TO THOSE PROMISES IN CHRIST THROUGH THE GOSPEL. GOD DID NOT CREATE ANOTHER BODY FOR GENTILES HE BROUGHT THEM NEAR THOSE WHO WERE FAR AWAY TO BE PART OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF ISRAEL. IF A GENTILE BELIEVES HE IS A SON OF ABRAHAM TOO AND IS JOINED TO THE HOUSE HOLD OF GOD THE CHURCH OR TRUE ISRAEL.

       Ephesians 2:11-18

       One in Christ

       11 You Gentiles by birth — called “the uncircumcised” by the Jews, who call themselves the circumcised (which refers to what men do to their bodies) — remember what you were in the past. 12 At that time you were apart from Christ. You were foreigners and did not belong to God’s chosen people. You had no part in the covenants, which were based on God’s promises to his people, and you lived in this world without hope and without God. 13 But now, in union with Christ Jesus you, who used to be far away, have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For Christ himself has brought us peace by making Jews and Gentiles one people. With his own body he broke down the wall that separated them and kept them enemies. 15 He abolished the Jewish Law with its commandments and rules, in order to create out of the two races one new people in union with himself, in this way making peace. 16 By his death on the cross Christ destroyed their enmity; by means of the cross he united both races into one body and brought them back to God. 17 So Christ came and preached the Good News of peace to all — to you Gentiles, who were far away from God, and to the Jews, who were near to him. 18 It is through Christ that all of us, Jews and Gentiles, are able to come in the one Spirit into the presence of the Father.
       GNT

       SO HOW WILL THE BODY BE RAPTURED PRE TRIB LEAVING SOME OF ITS BORDY PARTS WHO WE AGREE WILL GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

       DISPENSATIONALISIM DOES NOT CREATE TWO BODIES, ITS ONLY EXPLAINS TIMES OF VISITATION:

       THE FIRST ISRAELI DISPENSATION

       1. JESUS SAID IM SENT ONLY TO THE LOST HOUSE OF ISREAL
       – THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS WERE INSTRUCTED TO PREACH ONLY TO THE LOST HOUSE OF ISRAEL

       2. THE GENTILE DISPENSATION
       – THE GOSPEL WAS TAKEN TO THE GENTILES

       3. THE SECOND AND FINAL ISRAELI DISPENSATION
       – THE GOSPEL TAKEN TO ISRAEL DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD.

       DURING THESE DISPENSATION EVERYONE WHO REPAINTS, BELIEVES IN THE GOSPEL, IS BAPTIZED AND RECEIVE THE SPIRIT BELONGS TO THE ONE BODY WHICH IS OF CHRIST.

       THAT IS WHAT SCRIPTURE TEACHES DIFFERENT TIMES OF VISITATION FOR DIFFERENT CLASSES OF PEOPLE DOES NOT CREATE TWO GROUPS. THE BODY IS ONE.

       NO ONE IS GOIN ANYWAY UNTIL EVERYONE WHO BELONGS TO THE BODY COMES IN

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9. Kent Hovind has changed his position on the pre trib rapture because he is confussed now.I used to believe the false theory of the post trib rapture but now I have seen thru that and can see that the rapture is pre trib.It is as clear as day now to me.There is no confussion at all.
   Michael

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   • Kent Hovind changed his position on pre-trib rapture because God’s Word says in Matthew 24:

     29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
     30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
     31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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10. Hello 🙂
    Here is what I have learned:

    I have noticed, that lots of pre-tribulation believers think, they are going to be spared of any kind of tribulation. Which is not true, of course.
    However, post-tribulation believers seem to not discern between the rapture and the second coming of Jesus Christ, and assume both happen at the same time.
    Tribulation was already in the Apostle’s times and is even now, BUT this is not THE tribulation of seven years. It is important, to not mix things up.

    If we understanding these things, the picture becomes clear:
    Children of god go through many tribulations, but before THE tribulation and judgement of ungodly people, they will be saved through the rapture. During the tribulation, god’s eternal gospel is preached even by an angel – and a large number of people wash their clothes. Also, during this great trouble of Jacob, Israel accepts their saviour and renounces the false christ. NOW Jesus comes. 🙂

    So, can Jesus come any moment? No.
    Can the rapture happen any moment? If the world is ready for judgement – Yes.
    No AND Yes? Why? Because these two things are not the same.

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    • Thank you for your input! Please also see my Bible class about the length of the Great Tribulation: http://jamesjpn.net/2012/08/24/the-length-of-time-of-the-great-tribulation-of-the-saints/

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    • how then do you read this:

      1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

      16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

      17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
      ASV

      the second coming and the rapture are two side of the same coin. the event that triggers the rapture is the second coming of Jesus

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11. I believe KJV bible is strong and differce of bible not work is weak.

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12. James, Hi – I’ve enjoyed reading some of the articles on John Todd and other things. I’m a believer of some 35 years this last August just gone, and I too once accepted the pre Trib view of the Rapture. It all looked good from the comfortable armchair view of the world and the Church back in the 1980’s.

    Some serious study and debate has changed my mind since that time, chiefly, the passage of Matthew 13:24 – 29 and 36 – 40, in the parable of the tares and the wheat. I know that you can’t formulate a doctrine based on one passage of scripture – most unwise, but when I take it all into consideration, for me that parable is more of a clincher, than a foundation.

    At the end of the age, the tares (sons of the wicked one) are tied into bundles and burned (signifying eternal punishment,) whereas the wheat (which has to undergo harvesting, sorting out on the threshing floor etc) is taken into the safety of the Master’s barn, signifying eternal salvation.

    Christ tells this parable for a reason, to leave no doubt as to the fate of both the wicked and the righteous. The harvesters are heavenly angels, not earthly evangelists, so it will be too late for the wicked to repent, and the first “rapture” appears to be a rapture of the wicked. Then the righteous are gathered unto Christ and meet Him in the air, and progress on into the Millenium where they will rule and reign.

    I hope this post finds you well and standing strong for Jesus – I don’t attend a church gathering at the moment as a decent one that is not compromised is very hard to find nowdays.

    God’s blassing on you,
    Austin Hellier
    Brisbane, Australia

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13. i wish you good luck, you who are preparing yourself to go through the great tribulation.

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    • Just knowing Christians will face great tribulation is is part of the preparation. Woe to those who believe in unbiblical pretrib rapture doctrine! They will not be prepared for what is coming!

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      • Go ahead and prepare. I wont be here to watch. Ill be with Christ…Matt 25:1-13.

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        • I wouldn’t be too sure about that, my friend. If pre-trib rapture doctrine is correct, I have nothing to lose. If it is incorrect, you will be totally unprepared for what will happen.

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          • Yes you do have something to lose if Post- trib is correct. If you were to take the mark of the beast you would lose your salvation according to scripture. How is it I as a Christian can inter into this tribulation period and be in danger of losing my salvation when God promised that I would be sealed until the day of redemption? That’s one question all you post-tribers seem to gloss-over.

14. I often wonder why the Bible would cause so much confusion in the area of eschatology, when God is not the author of confusion. I read these comments and just become more annoyed. How can millions of Christian believe so many positions as it applies to eschatology/end times? If we take the three main interpretations of pre, mid, and post-tribulation, each camp of believers can point to scriptures that support their position/interpretation. It seems there is some truth to every interpretation. Why are there so many interpretations of Revelation, Daniel, etc.? Why did God leave the Bible this way? A way that turns Christians against each other, each pointing fingers, and each saying the other is wrong? Look how much division and what appears to be strife occurs? One thing is certain, no matter what viewpoint you hold to, we will all be with Jesus Christ in the end of it all. I personally believe in pre-tribuation. Will I be ready if there is no rapture? I ask, why wouldn’t I be? I still know the horrors that will be here. I still know that I am not to take the mark. I know that the Blood of Jesus Christ saves me. I know the intense persecution that will be here, persecution that no of us right now could fathom. How would I not be ready? Did the Lord design the Bible that way, where if one interprets scripture as pre-trib. he or she will automatically no be prepared to deal with their possible Biblical interpretation error? That would be quite unfair, not to mention deceiving on God’s part. Then in that case, theoretically I suppose that He should not have left the subject so vague; it should have been more clear if I will not be ready for what is coming. I may as well possibly take the mark? I serve the Lord and believe upon His name and His Blood, I know in whom I trust, but because of a belief in pre-trib that could be jeopardized and I could fall into a state of panic and unbelief as the world will do? I do not think so but maybe I am wrong. How will anybody who does not believe in the pre-trib be any more prepared that someone who does? This type of thing, the confusion, the interpretations, the bickering, really gets to me…tries my faith, tries my patience. I do not care what one believes as far as pre, mid, and post-trib. goes. It does not affect one’s salvation and love for the Lord. All sides make it seem as though we are practically sinning for believing in what we interpret to be true. Not on the posts above, but I have seen it elsewhere, and often. I keep repeating myself but the question still arises; How can millions of Christians see scripture so differently? I found this article interesting. It shook my belief and foundation in the pre-trib rapture. And, I am not saying this is wrong because it makes sense, but I just do not know. I guess none of us do, so how can we say which stance is correct? A statement like “Woe to those who believe in unbiblical pretrib rapture doctrine! They will not be prepared for what is coming!” I am sorry, but that is not in God’s Word. I am just as prepared as any believer who disagrees with pre-trib. Life as we know it presently can be hellish enough. If we have to go through more hell and then some, I do not understand why, after enduring such a fallen, perverted, deceiving world that is constantly trying to suck us in and destroy us. So one more final challenge of resisting and endurance? Let it come. This is another thing that has always bothered me. I go through hell on Earth and have to go through more? I am ready. Brother, I cannot say who is right or wrong. That is not my job.

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    • Elijah, when you understand a bit more about what the Jesuits did to subvert the Protestant Reformation, I think you might see some of the answers to your own questions. The fact is that the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine was not taught nor believed by Christians until the 19th century! It was developed by a man named John Darby and promoted by Cyrus Scofield — an unscrupulous character. It was false doctrine sown in the Church, tares among the wheat. The Jesuits had a hand in promoting it.

      Please read all the articles on this web site about the last 7 years and you might find some insights. Here’s one on the history of pre-trib rapture:

      http://jamesjpn.net/basic-bible/eschatology/the-origin-of-the-false-pre-tribulation-rapture-doctrine

      The key to biblical knowledge is simply reading the Bible over and over and over again. Who would you rather listen to, a man with a PhD in theology who has read the Bible only once, or a guy who barely graduated high school (me) who has read the Bible over and over again over a 40 year period and lived more than half his life trying to preach the Gospel to the lost in a foreign land? And I’ve been blessed to have been taught by others who have read the Bible even more than I have, Al Neal, for example, who read the Bible from cover to cover over 100 times. He sure doesn’t hold the pre-trib rapture doctrine. The people God gives insights to are the ones of try to follow Him and keep themselves unpolluted from the world. Most theology professors are so deep in the world you can hardly tell they are Christians.

      Are the Christians in Syria, Iraq or other nations where Christians are being killed today suffering LESS than people will during the Great Tribulation? I think not! They are having their tribulation NOW! The only reason why the tribulation is called “great” is because it will be world wide. And when you think about what the Roman Catholic Church has already done to Christians during the Inquisition, can you say their fate was less worse than what is to come? In a sense, the Church has already gone through many tribulations which resulted in their departure from this life.

      Revelation 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

      Why do I think it is important to know Christians are going to go through the Great Tribulation? It’s because when the tribulation begins, Christians will expect to be raptured, and when they are not, their FAITH WILL BE SHAKEN to its very core!!! This is because that so called “faith” in the rapture was based on the teaching of man, not God’s Word! The ones who expect it to come will NOT be shaken. They will have the faith to persevere and try to survive the best they can, and God will do miracles for them in supply and protection! I believe it with all my heart!

      Please read this http://jamesjpn.net/basic-bible/eschatology/time-line-of-events-of-the-last-7-years-of-the-rule-of-man
      It may shed some light and give you insights on this matter.

      Thanks for listening.

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      • hi james,

        all really good points.

        as I stated in my email, my belief is in pretrib
        but my faith is in Jesus Christ no matter what.
        I do believe that there are people who put so much
        faith into a pretrib that they will be shaken and suffer
        and they also will never budge from their belief.
        I believe pretrib but do not put everything of my
        soul into it therefore I can look at other viewpoints
        and give them a chance.
        when it hits worldwide there will be no place to hide.
        I think when the antichrist comes on the scene he is
        going to make hitler look like an innocent child. martial
        law will come to the US and people will engage in a civil
        war and be taken to fema camps to be executed. they can
        put a bullet in my head if they want me to denounce
        Jesus Christ

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        • Thanks for your input! It’s good to exchange thoughts from God’s Word in a spirit of friendship and love without bickering and strife.

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          • Most definitely! I was brought up pretrib. and have spent some time on mid and post-trib. I am going to look further into your article. It shakes my foundation of pretrib. but that is ok. Like I said, the most important thing is that a believer has their Christology right; after this we should teach each other and learn from each other.

    • Because the exact time oif Jesus coming is a mystery .We can know the seasons but not the days or hour .Folks many of you Seem confused that the rapture belief isn’t what makes one a born again christian it’s knowing and believing by faith Jesus God came in the flesh and died on the cross for our sins .That 1 john 1 9 if we confuse our sins Jesus is just and faithful to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness .Rapture ideology has nothing to do with salvation so it a issue we can disagree on and not divided over .Again on eis not a christian because they follow some rapture belief .

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15. I believe in pre-trib. My main purpose is to serve the Lord my God with all of my heart, listen to the Holy Spirit, and tell people about my faith in Jesus Christ as my Savior and Redeemer. I have a friend who asks me how will I deal with tribulation if there is no rapture. When and if that time comes I will say that it looks like there will be no rapture as the world is chaotic around me. What else can I do. Will I not be prepared? Then I guess one might assume that my belief in a pretrib rapture is greater than my belief in Jesus Christ?

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    • Good point–I would be more embarassed to be raptured before the tribulation and tell Jesus I didn’t believe your Word you were coming before the tribulation. That I believed the pre-trib rapture was a lie told by a little girl in 1830 and Darby. That would be MORE embarassing!

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      • And what exactly is God’s Word that states Jesus is coming before the tribulation? Matthew 24:29-31 indicates Jesus is coming “After the tribulation of those days …”

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16. I do not see a “resurrection” or a “rapture” in Matthew 24. If someone can show them both there, maybe there is room to consider it, and I mean to consider it ONLY. Where are angels ever used to resurrect the dead? Why would resurrected believers ever need angels for transportation anyway? We will BE LIKE HIM (Jesus) when we see Him. 1John 3:2 Also, this notion a little girl in 1830 invented the rapture with Darby is laughable! That is an old,old, tale told by post-mid tribbers who deny the Bible as the way to prove or disprove the “when” of the rapture. Kent Hovind is a fine naturalist and christian creationist, but he also has adopted the Lordship Salvation (works salvation)of Ray Comfort and John MacAthur. The Bible says we are not supposed to follow those who are “given to change”. Unless there is clear evidence to change one’s doctrine, fine! But Kent has done a double whammy! I’am wondering if this was not done for financial reasons, I mean he’s in jail and he needs to “broaden” his field of viewers. To change 2 major areas of teaching is suspect.

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    • Matthew 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

      This is not the Rapture? I think most Bible scholars would say that it is the Rapture. When I say “Bible scholars” I’m not talking about people with doctorates in theology, I’m talking about people who read and study the Bible and can teach Biblical doctrine directly from the Bible and not merely parrot some preacher they heard.

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      • If the Church is present during the Tribulation, why the need for the two witnesses?

        Check out this link. It’s quite a bit of reading, but I found it very interesting.

        http://www.biblebelievers.com/Dispen1a.htm

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        • We should get our doctrines from the Word of God, not from some clever preacher who could just as well have become a lawyer twisting the truth. The TWO WITNESSES are obviously IN the TRIBULATION, and WHO are they? The Church is one, and the Word of God is the other. Yes, you can call that an interpretation if you want, but the Word God makes is clear that the Church is in the Tribulation for it says in Matthew 24:29:31

          Matthew 24:29-31
          29  Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
          30  And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
          31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

          What part of Matthew 24:29-31 do pre-tribulation doctrine people do not understand? Seems as clear as a bell to me. And yet some say it’s not talking about the rapture in verse 31. But the Word of God is clear in several other verses of the Bible.

          Revelation 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

          The “saints” is the Church and that “him” is the Antichrist, the man of sin. War is the ultimate tribulation a people can experience. Tell the Iraqi and Syrian Christians God will rapture them out of their tribulation. They have ALREADY experienced more than 3.5 years of tribulation!!!

          Daniel 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

          As you see, Daniel 7:25 compliments Revelation 13:7. The Saints are the Church that gets worn out by the Tribulation and wars of the Antichrist.

          Unless you can back up your convictions by Scripture, your faith does not lie in God’s Word but in the word of some website or preacher.

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          • Folks many of you Seem confused that the rapture belief isn’t what makes one a born again christian it’s knowing and believing by faith Jesus God came in the flesh and died on the cross for our sins .That 1 john 1 9 if we confuse our sins Jesus is just and faithful to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness .Rapture ideaolgy has nothing to do with salvation so it a issue we can disagree on and not divided over .Again on eis not a christian because they follow some rapture belief .

          • One small problem with your Post-trib rapture theory. If what you are saying is true that would mean that the bride of Christ will go into the tribulation. Problem. Christians or the Bride of Christ will at some point be exposed to the mark of the beast, and if they take the mark they will most certainly go to hell. But God has promised that we Christians are sealed until the day of redemption. So, If I can lose my salvation during the tribulation then that would make God a liar. God is not a liar, so there is defiantly flaws in your post – trib theory. Oh, and by the way don’t say” a true Christian wont take the mark”. Really, You cant even get Christians to be faithful now, and were not even in the tribulation yet, during that time it will be required to buy and sale. How many people are going to go with out food? Not many. And get this, if only “one” person who is saved takes the mark and goes to hell, that makes God a liar. NO,NO, I think you better do a little more studying on the subject. I am saved and my salvation has been purchased, I will not have to endure until the end,there’s just to many holes in your post-trib theory.

        • The Bible is the best place to find the answers. It’s pretty clear that none of the scriptures they used above have anything to do with the “great tribulation’ period except the last one (Rev 7:14) and it’s simply saying “these are they that came from that tribulation period” referring to those that DO go through the great tribulation. The other scriptures are basically just saying “in this life, you will suffer tribulation”. That was for your grandpa and his grandpa and his great great grandpa and YOU! That is not saying anything even remotely that proves or disproves a pre, mid, or post trib rapture. What we do know is, Jesus said when you see the wind blowing, you know a storm is coming, how is it then that you cannot read the signs of the times? He made it real clear “when you see these things, that is increasing earthquakes, wars and rumors of wars, pestilence, famines, the change of people’s behaviors and when things are like in the days of Noah and the devil is working hard to corrupt us genetically, and spiritually and morally we are twisted and corrupt, He said “REJOICE!” LOOK UP, YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NEAR!” He goes on to describe 2 men working in the field, one is taken up, the other is left, 2 women working at the wheel, one is taken, one is not. Obviously if it was the GREAT tribulation, they wouldn’t be working in the field. There would be no field to work in. Will they see SOME tribulation? Obviously. But it’s pretty clear they will be taken before the time of wrath. God did say He will not allow His children to suffer His wrath”. If you are His, He is your protector, your strong tower, under His wings you can put your trust. Though a thousand may fall at your right, and ten thousand at your left, you can fear no evil, for He is with you. And He will never leave you or forsake you.

          If you being evil know how to give good things to your children, what more do you think your Heavenly Father will do for you? But to those who are of the synagog of satan and those who rejected Him, those who mock Him and blaspheme His name… He also said to those “depart from me, I never knew you”. You gives a different admonition to those who are in Judea. “Head for the hills” and don’t look back. Just like He warned Lot and his family to get out of Sodom and Gomorrah and don’t look back. Don’t go back for your coat. Head for the hills. But those who put their trust in Jesus can rejoice! For their redemption draws near.

          “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:31) The word baseball doesn’t appear in the Bible either, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. The word rapture simple means “caught up” or “taken up”. Call it what you want.

          Analyze and scrutinize, and ponder and question all you like, but be careful, you don’t miss it while trying to “figure it out”. That’s why Jesus said to “come as a little child”. A little child doesn’t come with a bunch of fear based questions to his or her father wondering if he’s going to squish them or run them over with the family car or burn their house down with them in it. A little child trusts their father with their very life and when they come, they come with open arms and an open heart, saying “up daddy up”.

          If you are still questioning what list you are on, or whether or not God is going to allow you to suffer His wrath, then may I submit that you don’t yet really know Him, and your time would best be spent trying to get to know Him, rather than trying to figure out all the mysteries of the Bible. For when you know Him, when you know His nature and know who you are in Him, you will know the answers to the questions you seek.

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        • Why the need for two witnesses, if there are 144,000 supposed Jewish witnesses?

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      • The rapture can not be found in the Bible until:
        1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (KJV).

        Mysteries belong to God
        Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints (KJV)

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      • It’s the second coming…there is no rapture. When Christ returns with his saints at Armageddon that is called the day of atonement not the second coming

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    • the angels are not stated as resurrecting the dead, but collecting the living believers.
      you take issue with all this, you take issue with Christ’s words in Matt. 24 and the clear
      teaching of 2 Thess. chapter 2 read ALL of it not bits yanked out of context.

      pre trib is false. All scriptures that support it are taken out of context and twisted
      with the help of allegory and extreme typology something Paul only uses briefly while
      entire books and articles are filled with this, this is the way all heretics twist
      Scripture.

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    • Matthew 24:29-30

      29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [Isaiah 13:10; 34:4; Joel 2:10,11; Zephaniah 1:15.]

      30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor]. [Daniel 7:13; Revelation 1:7.]
      AMP

      Revelation 20:4

      4 Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges and to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes [beheaded] for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark or permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years. [Daniel 7:9,22,27.]
      AM

      HOPE YOU SEE THAT THERE IS A RESURRECTION IN MATTHEW 24. YOU DONT TAKE ONE SCRIPTURE AND RUN TO TOWN THE BIBLE IS A SINGLE UNIT EXPRESSED IN PIECES.

      GO AND READ THE TEACHINGS OF PAUL THIS IS THE ORDER OF EVENTS

      1. CHRIST APPEARS IN THE SKY (SECOND COMING)

      2. DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST IN NEW BODIES

      3. THE LIVING IN CHRIST ARE TRANSLATED IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE

      TOGETHER (THE RAISED AND THE LIVING IN CHRIST) A RAPTURED AND MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR.

      SO THE KEY QUESTION IS WHERE DO YOU PLACE THE SECOND COMING? THAT WERE THE RAPTURE TAKE PLACE

      1 Corinthians 15:20-23

      20 But the fact is that Christ (the Messiah) has been raised from the dead, and He became the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death].

      21 For since [it was] through a man that death [came into the world, it is] also through a Man that the resurrection of the dead [has come].

      22 For just as [because of their union of nature] in Adam all people die, so also [by virtue of their union of nature] shall all in Christ be made alive.

      23 But each in his own rank and turn: Christ (the Messiah) [is] the firstfruits, then those who are Christ’s [own will be resurrected] at His coming.
      AMP

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17. [Just saw this shocking claim on the web!:]

    John Nelson Darby is not the ‘father of dispensationalism’ (the favorite feature of which is an imminent pretrib rapture)!…Incredibly, Darby wasn’t first or original with any aspect of the same system including this bedrock known today as the church/Israel dichotomy!…Darby’s own words at the time prove that he was posttrib from 1827 through 1838 and that he had no clear pretrib teaching before 1839 – nine years after Irving and his group had begun the clear teaching of it [in 1830]….After Darby’s death in 1882, one of his influential disciples wrote and published a series of articles in his own journal supposedly detailing the history of the Irvingites as well as that of his own group, the Darbyist Brethren. His aim was to give Darby lasting fame. He accomplished this by furtively adding, subtracting, and changing many words in the earliest, hard-to-locate “rapture” documents – Irvingite as well as Brethren – thus giving the false impression that Irving and his followers had not been first to teach pretrib dispensationalism. By dishonestly covering up and eliminating the Irvingites who truly had been the first in everything, he was able to deceitfully and wrongfully elevate Darby as the “father of pretrib rapture dispensationalism”!

    [To see all of this explosive article, which names all the names and dates in this long-covered-up fraud, Google “John Darby Did Not Invent the Rapture – by Dave MacPherson (March 19, 2015)”]

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18. I find this topic interesting and you can see that by all the posts. But I really think Eschatology is a open door for opinions. I believe the answer lies in its origin. Now I am not going to give my eschatology, but I think we need to turn to history. We have a library in front of us, with the PC. The word “rapture” it is not even mentioned in in any “christian” literature prior to the year 1830. According to the dictionary its’s origin is 1600, interesting. But I would start with Jesuit Francisco Ribera and Bellarmine. I don’t believe the answer is Eschatology, I believe we can find it in researching the history of the word rapture. One thing we can all agree on, it has been a money maker for all the book salesman. When it comes to history, we have had it taken away from us. It has been said you can change a culture by taking their history away. It could be said, that to change biblical doctrine take away their history.

    1Tim [4] Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

    1Tim [7] But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

    Titus [14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

    2 Peter1 [16] For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were
    eyewitnesses of his majesty.

    Thanks James for the post, Keep on Keeping on!!
    Walt

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19. So this Kent Hovind wants to be taken seriously yet the only thing that stands out are his very crude and asinine comments about “Bible believing Baptists”.I would never trust anyone who speaks of others this way.His comments tell me all I need to know about his character,lack of wisdom and tact.

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    • Seem you much confused that the rapture belief isn’t what makes one a born again christian it’s knowing and believing by faith Jesus God came in the flesh and died on the cross for our sins .That 1 john 1 9 if we confuse our sins Jesus is just and faithful to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness .http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1097/1097_01.asp

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20. I believe the anti-Christ will be one the Popes or come out of that system
    In Rev.1:1(AKJV 1611)John describes a beast having seven head,in Rev.17:9 (AKJV 1611) it tells what those seven heads are’ Seven Mountain’s on top of those seven mountains the woman (Mother of Harlots) nothing fits this picture better than the Vatican which sits on seven mountains.

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    • And I absolutely agree with you!

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21. / Hi, James. Angela here. Found this composition some time ago while I was surfing the net. Hope you enjoy it. /

    Pretrib Rapture – how WHAT becomes WHEN

    Certain rapture verses in the Bible are a WHATers paradise!

    WHATers can dazzle their audience with a lot of WHAT WHAT WHAT between Gen. 1:1 and Rev. 22:21 and, while you’re not noticing, quickly sneak in their own WHEN of the rapture and ignore the Bible’s WHEN!

    WHATers read all of the WHAT details in I Thess. 4:13-18, emphasize the “comfort one another” at the end, and say something like “What a comforting thought that the rapture can happen at any moment BEFORE the tribulation!”

    They often add: “It wouldn’t be comforting if we had to face the Antichrist.” (Maybe they believe a lighthouse wouldn’t be comforting to sailors on a dark, stormy night but only when the sun is shining!)

    WHATers avoid the next chapter (I Thess. 5) which says that the rapture’s “times and seasons” happen WHEN “sudden destruction” (the “destruction” part of the “day of the Lord”) happens.

    (How can the wicked be destroyed before, or during, the time of their tribulational “reign”? Even their leader, the Antichrist, isn’t destroyed until the trib’s end!)

    Now look at I Cor. 15:51-54. WHATers have a blast with the first half. They dwell on “mystery,” read “in a moment” as if it really means “AT ANY MOMENT,” spend an inordinate amount of time explaining how fast the “twinkling of an eye” is, and try to prove that “last” (in “the last trump”) doesn’t really mean “last”!

    Seldom do WHATers dare to reveal WHEN we are changed into immortal bodies – but verse 54 dares to when it says our rapturous change occurs WHEN WHEN WHEN “Death is swallowed up” (same as “ended”).

    Obviously the trib’s time of death can’t be ended before, or even during, the trib!

    And WHATers don’t want you to realize that the “Death” quote is a paraphrase of Isa. 25:8 which even Scofield etc. agree is in a posttrib setting!

    II Thess. 1:6-10 is further proof that our rapture (“rest” in vs. 7) happens WHEN the wicked are destroyed – and not several years ahead of time!

    And Acts 2:34-35 and Acts 3:21 declare that Christ must stay in heaven UNTIL He comes down to earth to destroy the wicked (make them His “footstool”) and restore “all things” – so how can He leave heaven ahead of time for a pretrib rapture?

    II Tim. 3:14 says we should “vet” our teachers (“knowing of whom thou hast learned them”). You can do this if you Google or Yahoo “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” and “Left Behind or Led Astray?” (on You Tube).

    What I’m wondering is this: WHEN will everyone wake up and realize that a lot of WHAT will never take the place of WHEN?

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    • 1 Cor 15:52 is the crucible for a pre-ttib rapture. On a radio talk show I asked John McArthur, whom I still greatly respect, how he gets past the Last Trumpet. The LASTEST trumpet is Is 27:13 when Jews are being butchered. It’s a rescue mission!

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      • McArther said there were 2 last trumpets. Ridiculous of course. No genuine Christian will take the Mark 666. When they say God can save professing Christian they are right. But God won’t. God could forgive Satan. But He wont. Satan gets a thousand years to reflect on what he has done. Does he beg forgiveness? NOT. God can, but Satan cznt. Markers cant either.

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        • John MacArthur is a good man, but sadly his eschatology is tainted by Roman Catholic Jesuit doctrines.

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      • 1 Cor 15:52 is about the Rapture, but it does not say it will happen just before a great tribulation that will rescue the saved and leave the unsaved to be judged. I also like John MacArthur, but sad to say, he is following the Futurist school of eschatology that was formulated by Roman Catholics, Jesuits, to derail the Protestant Reformation by getting Protestant Christians’ eyes off the Pope / papacy as the biblical Antichrist. Doctrines such as pre-tribulation rapture, the 70th Week of Daniel being separated from the first 69 Weeks and thrown into the unknown future, and an Endtime ONLY Antichrist started with John Nelson Darby in the 19th century and was promoted by C.I. Scofield in the 20th century. Just ask yourself: Is the Pope the Antichrist? If your answer is no, I suggest you read the history of 1260 years of papal persecution of true believers in Christ who refused to bend their knees to the Popes of Rome and suffered torture and death as a result.

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22. Still waiting for place to send donations if one doesn’t have PayPal.
    Am really enjoying your info & posts…..Thank you so much ?

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    • Dear Mary,
      Sorry but I don’t remember you ever asking me specifically how to send!
      I do use Palpal. Please send to james.arendt@deeptruths.com

      Thank you!

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23. [Greets, James, I saw this striking announcement on the web. Enjoy.]

    BREAKING NEWS: The producers of the “Left Behind” movie have announced that the 98th sequel of it is scheduled to come out two weeks before the end of the Great Tribulation – in time to make “imminence” finally believable. (Just kidding. But the next sequel really and truly is set for a mid-2016 appearance!)
    Seriously, if you want the real skinny on “Left Behind” mania, Google “Prof. Wm. L. Craig Leaves Tim LaHaye Behind,” “LaHaye’s Temperament,” “Pretrib Rapture Pride,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” and (for dessert) “Treena Gisborn (Facebook).”

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    • Thank you Ellen for sharing this, but you don’t believe in it, do you? Pre-tribulation rapture is an Endtime delusion which is dealt with extensively on this website.

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24. One small problem with your Post-trib rapture theory. If what you are saying is true that would mean that the bride of Christ will go into the tribulation. Problem. Christians or the Bride of Christ will at some point be exposed to the mark of the beast, and if they take the mark they will most certainly go to hell. But God has promised that we Christians are sealed until the day of redemption. So, If I can lose my salvation during the tribulation then that would make God a liar. God is not a liar, so there is defiantly flaws in your post – trib theory. Oh, and by the way don’t say” a true Christian wont take the mark”. Really, You cant even get Christians to be faithful now, and were not even in the tribulation yet, during that time it will be required to buy and sale. How many people are going to go with out food? Not many. And get this, if only “one” person who is saved takes the mark and goes to hell, that makes God a liar. NO,NO, I think you better do a little more studying on the subject. I am saved and my salvation has been purchased, I will not have to endure until the end,there’s just to many holes in your post-trib theory.

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    • Firstly, are you saying the 1st century Christians suffered horrible deaths and we “latter day” Christians don’t? By the way, they were part of the latter days, in case you didn’t catch that. Secondly, those who don’t receive the mark are beheaded…so as those who went before us (you know, those lesser Christians) like Peter, Paul, John, etc., etc., we in these “latter days” have know “present sufferings”? The Rapture is a Jesuit concoction and you might want to search that out. The Historicist View of prophesy was all there was until the Geneva Bible came out and exposed the true antichrist…then Rome panicked and the Jezzies got buzzy trying to debunk it with their skilled Sophistry.

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      • Ahhhh, I am guessing you are Church Of Christ. because they are the only ones that can read something and come away from what they read with a TOTALY off the wall, absolutely nothing to do with what was written in black and white. No, I absolutely did not mention 1st century Christians or latter day Christians, further more I read my post again about three times and no where is there mention any thing regarding the percussion of Christians in any era. I will condense my comments so you wont have any trouble understanding. If a Christian inters into the tribulation and for what ever reason takes the mark of the beast, will that person go to Hell? If so, you have a problem. As stated in my previous post, we are sealed until the day of redemption, how is that possible if I go to hell during the tribulation?

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        • Well, I see why I was confused now…you assume a true Christian would take the mark. Deceiving the very elect…which is impossible. But, in effect, your Jesuit founded belief in a rapture is what had me thinking that you were referring to the “tribulation” period, which is a time of severe persecution and not simply for Christians. So, I can admit “reading into something”, but that is because by default your logic is off. “What if” hinges on salvation conditioned on the sinner…and that Christ is unable to save to the uttermost, those who are His. Not looking for some way to get you upset…or to be offensive…or even condescending…just tried to be helpful.

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          • Oh. I had to stop suddenly to the care of something…my anger towards the Jesuit doctrine on Futurism showed through on my original reply…it wasn’t my intention to seem as though I was “attacking”. Forgive any hint that I was. There are some things that get me a bit disgruntled and I forget that new people I meet don’t know this about me and think I am angry at them, when I am not.

          • Thank you for your reply, however, it seem I am not being clear in my attempt to get an answer to my question. I am thankful for your kindness while I may have been a little sarcastic. I tend to do that when people don’t understand my points. Question, is your position that a Christian would not or could not take the mark of the beast? If so, please explain why, and what would prevent a Christian from doing so. I understand that A Christian’s salvation is not dependent upon a persons ability to hold out until the end, so wouldn’t it stand to reason that if a person is depending on his/her ability to hold out and not take the mark be a form of works based salvation? Thank you in advance.

    • Revelation 20:4

      4 Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges and to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes [beheaded] for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark or permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years. [Daniel 7:9,22,27.]

      So if you cant remain faithful like these ones, then you are not born again Christian. When you have the seal of God which is the Spirit of God, you will not be moved even during this period of great tribulation.

      so to say that no one will buy or sale and that Christians are not faithful now so if that time come they will fall away is just circular reasoning. A sign that we have fake Christians who are not willing to die for their faith.

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25. A key part of this argument makes the assumption that by the word “saints” he means gentile believers. This same word was used also of OT priests, temple artifacts, and the nation of Israel.

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26. “Then we who are alive and remain shall be ‘caught up’ together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” Thessalonians 4:17?

    “Caught Up”

    The term translated “caught Up” is from the Greek “ ἁρπάζω/harpazō”. The positive departure of the church.

    Late 4 th Century? ‘Rapiemur (Latin for Rapture’) In I Thessalonians 4:17 below (Jerome’s Latin Vulgate)

    …deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul ‘ rapiemur ‘ cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus.. -1 Thessalonians 4:17 (Latin)

    Latin “rapiemur” above which comes from “rapio”, (the tense is past participle) where we get our English term Rapture.
    It is defined as “to take away by force, caught up”
    The English term Rapture or rapt stem from this past participle.

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    • McArther said there were 2 last trumpets. Ridiculous of course. But lets be honest. Rev3 :10 the Philly church avoids the Tribulation. It’s not as clear cut as some would like. We can hope for a PreTrib Rapture, but prepare ourselves for persevering till the last Trump. Don’t attack your brothers who err. We all err, they used to call Joel 2 a locust plague. It would be aws inspiring for Messiah to thunder at the head of a locust army using crackling fire. To err is human. And after all I can be wrong, as can you.

      No genuine Christian will take the Mark 666. When they say God can save professing Christian they are right. But God won’t. God could forgive Satan. But He wont. Satan gets a thousand years to reflect on what he has done. Does he beg forgiveness? NOT. God can, but Satan cznt. Markers cant either.

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27. Post trib rapture is just as stupid as pre trib rapture. Both are Dispensational and claim that Daniel 9 has a 7 year disjointed fulfillment which is utterly stupid. Amillennialism is the truth. Jesus Christ fulfilled the final 7 years by fulfilling prophecy, ending the effectiveness of the sacrifices by being the Lamb of God sacrificed for the sins of the world, and by confirming the New Covenant with many for 7 years. 3.5 years before his crucifixion and 3.5 years after his crucifixion. James Ussher proved this beyond any reasonable doubt and the organization Answers in Genesis recently funded the remastering of his time tested work titled “Annals” in which he proved exactly what occurred during the 490 year prophecy of Daniel. All Dispensationalist interpretations are garbage. Pretrib, Midtrib, Post-trib are all outrageous lies claiming that a future antichrist is going to fulfill what Jesus Christ already accomplished.

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    • I agree with you. I just think it’s cool that Kent Hovid was open to revising his doctrine. Maybe at this point in time he rejected Dispensationalism entirely. I don’t know what his views are today. People can change. I did.

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