This is part two of the 1986 interview Jack Chick had with Dr. Rebecca Brown and former witch and Satanist Elaine. If you haven’t listened to or read part one of this interview yet, you should do so before reading or listening to the audio tape on this article in order to understand it.

The audio is below the transcription if you would rather listen to it first.

Transcription of Closet Witches : Part Two – Jack T. Chick

Jack Chick: Greetings in Jesus’ precious Name! Beloved, this is tape number two entitled Closet Witches. If you didn’t listen to tape number one of Closet Witches, you won’t have the slightest idea of what we’re talking about. So I advise you to get ahold of that first tape.

We’re going into prayer because we’re covering a very delicate subject here, a very heavy subject, and we need prayer before we face it.

Tape number one is probably one of the most exciting things I’ve ever listened to, especially when it comes to this kind of testimony. Now, we found out that you had to face that awesome night when Satan was sending all of his troops against you, and he had designed that both Rebecca and Elaine be used as a human sacrifice. And it didn’t work, and God intervened, and He saved you both, and I praise God for that.

All right, let’s go on, Rebecca. Tell the listeners now what happened after this night had passed.

Rebecca Brown: Yes Jack, that was really just the first step. There was much more to come. And from this point on the Lord moved extremely rapidly in my life.

The first thing He did was directly challenge me and ask me if I would be willing to commit my life to Him to be used in any way in which He chose, to directly combat Satan, and to enter a ministry in bringing people out of occult involvements which is extremely heavy spiritual warfare. I up until that point had very carefully planned my medical career. I loved the field of oncology which is taking care of cancer patients. I had intended to specialize in that after I finished my training in internal medicine. I had been accepted to an extremely prestigious training program about a thousand miles away from where I lived. But the Lord indicated to me that if I chose to do His first will for my life, and that was enter into this ministry, that I would have to give up my career goals to go into oncology and set up a much more general practice close to the Satanic community in order that God could bring to me those people that needed help.

But the Lord also made it very clear to me that within a certain amount of time, and He didn’t tell me how long of course, I would have to eventually lay down my medical career all together and enter full time into this ministry. He also made it clear to me that I would be persecuted, that I would experience much hardship, that I would lose my family, which I have, my entire family. But most of all, He made it plain to me that He would walk with me through all these trials. And I can tell you in truth, Jack, before we go on to tell what happened, I have come to know the Lord personally through all of this in a way that I never could have any other way I don’t believe. And that’s what treasure in Heaven is all about. It’s a personal knowledge of the Lord, and nothing, nothing can be compared with the worth of that knowledge.

I agonized over that decision for about a week. And I made the decision, I committed myself to God to be used in that way, I counted the cost as best I could, and then I just had to trust the Lord from that point on that He would provide the grace to see me through whatever would come.

Elaine also during this time was agonizing with precisely the same decision. God had challenged her with the same decision, and she certainly had a lot at stake, because she knew that she would be a hunted person all the rest of her life, especially if she entered into a ministry of exposing Satan and the way that he works. So we were really both struggling although we didn’t talk to each other about it at that time very much.

I wrote to the program and canceled out, and told them I would not be coming. Within a week of my making that decision I lost every friend I had. It was absolutely incredible! Up until that point in time, I had been considered the top resident at the hospital I was. I had great favor in the eyes of the physicians there. I had a number of friends with the other residents and interns and nurses on the staff by that time. Every one of them turned against me.

Jack Chick: Now, was this because you were being obedient to the Lord? The Lord told you to take Elaine and move her into your home. Was this the upshot of this?

Rebecca Brown: Well, the remarkable thing, Jack, is many of these people didn’t even know I had Elaine in with me. Satan was just straight manipulating them. He was putting thoughts in their minds and their hearts against me and they bought it. It shows you know. Jesus talked about how He couldn’t trust Himself to men because they’re so fickle, and that’s exactly the way it was. But the biggest thing was the instant I turned down that prestigious position.

Jack Chick: Oh, they started to have doubts about you!

Rebecca Brown: That’s exactly right! And they would say, “Why aren’t you taking it?” And my only answer could be, “It’s not God’s will for my life at this point.” And then they would say, “How do you know?” And my answer would be, “Because God told me so.”

Jack Chick: And then they freaked out, right?

Rebecca Brown: That is correct. In fact, within a year the leaders of my program, because of my stand and saying that the Lord communicated with me, tried to have me thrown in a mental institution. They were not successful because they could not prove that I was crazy. But just because I took a stand in faith, and I can imagine what the prophets went through in the Old Testament days to stand up and say, “God spoke to me and told me this or that” that’s a tremendous step in faith.

Also, the minister of the church, I had been attending a Christian church there locally in town regularly, and Elaine had been going with me, he called me up and told me that if I didn’t get Elaine out of my house that I couldn’t come back to the church again.

Jack Chick: Was this the pastor who helped when you were so desperately ill and they had the whole church praying for you?

Rebecca Brown: No, that pastor was in my hometown which was about 100 miles away. This was in the town where the training center was. My parents called me and told me that I should get rid of Elaine just out of the blue. My roommate was pressuring me that I should kick Elaine out, that she didn’t like her, that I was being unwise to bring her in. And then of course Elaine’s daughter came to live with us, and my roommate very much disliked that.

Jack Chick: How old was Elaine’s daughter, Rebecca?

Rebecca Brown: She was about 12 years old at that time. After all this happened, well, actually it was during the time all of this was happening, Satan began to attack mightily in the spirit realm as well. I had felt that Elaine was demon possessed but I wasn’t totally sure.

Jack Chick: You mean even after she was saved?

Rebecca Brown: Yes, that is correct.

Jack Chick: We mentioned in the earlier tape some of the things that transpired about Manchan. He was subdued, wasn’t he?

Rebecca Brown: Yes, he had to back down, and Elaine could begin to gain some control of him but not all the time. But you see, as Elaine took a stand, and as she grew in the Lord, it was like the Holy Spirit was working and the demons just couldn’t stand it in there anymore, and it was forcing them to the surface. And it’s really a taking of the ground, taking of the land step by step just like the children of Israel had to take the land of Canaan step by step. They didn’t take it all in one sweep.

Jack Chick: Wasn’t Elaine still practicing witchcraft even though she had become a Christian and she wasn’t even aware of this?

Rebecca Brown: She was in order to defend herself to keep herself alive. But you see, I didn’t know that. Because Elaine still obviously had a great deal of fear, and there was a lot of things she hadn’t confided in me, and I discovered for sure that the demons were in there one day when suddenly Manchan surfaced. And he managed to gain control of Elaine’s body and attacked me and tried to kill me with a butcher knife, physically with her body attacked me. And the Lord just gave me instant knowledge that this was a demon. I was just terrified. But I knew by then that I must just stand in the name of Jesus and that’s exactly what I did and gained triumph over him, and again he had to back down.

Jack Chick: Now this is incredible information! Most people aren’t even aware of anything like this even going on!

Rebecca Brown: Right. And then it was a step-by-step occurrence. We had an eight weeks battle with the demons in Elaine. You see, I took Elaine down to my home church with the pastor there, and we had an initial deliverance session that lasted about eight hours.

Jack Chick: Now, this was the pastor that had prayed for you.

Rebecca Brown: That is correct, the same pastor who had prayed for me.

Jack Chick: He was into deliverance ministry.

Rebecca Brown: Yes, he was very knowledgeable about that sort of thing, but he had never dealt with anyone who had been so deeply involved in the occult as Elaine. We had an eight-hour deliverance session. We kicked out several hundred demons. But the thing of it is, at that time we were not knowledgeable enough with someone that deeply involved to know all the doorways to close. And if you leave one demon in then he’s going to hold the doorway open and all the others will come back in. And that’s exactly what happened. All the demons were back in within a week.

Jack Chick: So the key is closing the doorways, isn’t it?

Rebecca Brown: Yes, the key is cleaning the person out totally and completely all at once, and then the house is swept clean.

Jack Chick: All right now, what happened? Did your home turn into a nightmare at this point?

Rebecca Brown: Yes, we were literally in an Amityville situation (referring to a horror novel with the name of Amityville), because not only were the demons surfacing through Elaine – and God permitted this for my training – but also the cult was attacking us with everything they had. They were sending demons into my home, they were astral projecting in.

Jack Chick: Now, did you have furniture flying around?

Rebecca Brown: Yes. it was. And it was nothing for me to be grabbed at night when I went to bed and be pulled out of the bed and thrown across the room against the wall. We were bruises from head to toe.

Jack Chick: It was like a battlefield!

Rebecca Brown: Yes it was. It was nothing to have a chair come flying across the room. At first …

Jack Chick: So it was just like the stuff you see in the movies!

Rebecca Brown: Yes. And at first, I was sitting there saying, “I’m surely having a hallucination.” But as soon as I began to realize, “No, this is for real.” Then as I would begin to say, “Stop in the Name of Jesus,” and use the power and authority available to me in the Name of Jesus, I could halt these things.

Jack Chick: You mean the stuff that was astral projecting through the air?

Rebecca Brown: Right, right, yes. I had an eight weeks battle with the demons in Elaine until finally I had learned enough. And it was during that period of time that the Lord showed me, revealed direct revelation that Elaine had been using her witchcraft because she didn’t know any other way. She had not been trained, no one had told her any other way to defend herself. And I remember we had to come to the point of Elaine getting down on her knees and praying out loud with me asking the Lord to take away all of her abilities of witchcraft, and to take them away so completely that if ever she were to rebel and to try and regain them, that she could not. Now, that was a big step.

Jack Chick: That was scary for her because that was her only protection at that time, wasn’t it?

Rebecca Brown: That’s correct. That’s correct, but that step had to be taken. Every witch that comes out of witchcraft has to take that step.

Jack Chick: That’s the one thing they don’t want to lose. Probably the one reason they went into witchcraft in the first place was to gain power, and they realize by going this direction they’re going to lose all their power.

Rebecca Brown: That’s correct, that’s correct.

Elaine: Well, I agree with that wholeheartedly, only I didn’t really lose power that I didn’t have in the first place. It wasn’t mine, it was Satan’s. It was the demons. They were using me, I was not using them. That’s something that witches and warlocks and these people have to understand, that this power that they crave so much it, doesn’t belong to them, they’re just being used. But the power I got by denying the power of Satan and claiming the power of Jesus Christ was a million times fold that of Satan. I mean, He gave me everything my heart desired, love, companionship, hope, I had food and clothing and everything I needed because I claimed Jesus as my Savior.

Jack Chick: Well not only that, you mentioned in tape number one that Satan backed away from you. (Elaine: He sure did!) He made his appearance. Now he was frightened of the Holy Spirit in you, the fact you have become a Christian.

Elaine: Oh yeah, he’s terrified of Jesus Christ Himself, he is terrified of the Holy Spirit, he is terrified of Father, he is terrified of anything that anyone has to do with the Trinity or you know, the Godhead with Father, Son, Holy Spirit, whichever, and he’s terrified of that because there’s power in it, he can’t come against that.

Jack Chick: Well, Elaine, let me ask you, were these chairs being thrown at you too? Were you also been thrown out of the bed and against the wall?

Elaine: Oh yeah, it wasn’t unusual for be to sitting and reading God’s Word, and I was really really reading it for the first time in my life, really understanding what I was reading, and really reading it and I was loving it, and I’d be putting on good records, good Christian music that I’d never really heard before, although I’d heard it but you really begin to hear and see and know. And I’d be sitting there minding my own business communicating with the Father, and all of a sudden my whole body is picked up and I’m slammed against the wall and there’s no one in the room.

Jack Chick: Were these outside forces or were they the demonic forces inside you?

Elaine: They could be both.

Jack Chick: It was just to hassle you from reading the Word.

Elaine: Yeah, keep me from reading the Word, keep my mind away from God, away from God’s things, to remind me that they were there, that they could destroy me, that so and so forth. They could not without God’s permission.

Rebecca Brown: This brings up an important point that I have come across so many times in our ministry since. Witches do not realize that they need to ask the Father to take away their ability to see the spirit world. People involved in the occult develop the ability to see the spirit world continually.

Jack Chick: Now that’s also the auras. Can a witch spot auras around people?

Rebecca Brown: Yes that is correct. But once they ask the Lord to take that all away, then they cannot be badgered and tormented so from the spirit world because they can’t see it anymore, and it provides them with a great deal of peace. However in Elaine’s case, because we were involved in such a battle, it was a big thing for her because she could no longer know when someone was coming. See, she had to depend upon the Lord to tell her. And it was just, it was a real growing experience.

Jack Chick: So this battlefield you folks went through was for almost how long?

Rebecca Brown: It was eight weeks. We did not have any sleep for eight weeks. The Lord kept us going. It was a continuous battle. I was working at the hospital all during that. Fortunately it was a provision of the Lord. I was on a rotation that was essentially research.

Jack Chick: Now, was Satan trying to kill Elaine with more illness? She was ill to begin with, wasn’t she?

Rebecca Brown: Yes, but it was not illness so much this time. He was trying to kill her by the demons within her. They would take a belt and put it around her neck and try to strangle her.

Jack Chick: That’s suicide, giving the appearance of suicide.

Rebecca Brown: Certainly. I’m convinced that most suicides are actually not done by the person themselves but by a demon within them controlling their body.

Jack Chick: Or outside.

Rebecca Brown: Yes, but more frequently from the inside. Finally, after this eight week battle, the Lord had taught us so much. We learned through this that finally He gave me the indication that it was time to call my pastor in the hometown where I lived, the one that helped me when I was ill. And we scheduled a final deliverance session which lasted about 10 hours. And all of the demons were cast out of Elaine and she was completely sealed by the Lord.

Jack Chick: What about Manchan?

Rebecca Brown: Yes of course, he was the biggest spider, he was the first one we went for.

Jack Chick: Could you tell when he was gone or did you feel differently, Elaine?

Elaine: Well yes, there was a lighter or a lightness inside of me. It wasn’t quite the clawing scratching – to give you some kind of a an idea what was like inside – trying to keep everything else either ripped apart or pulled together.

Jack Chick: Could you actually feel ripping inside of you?

Elaine: Sure! It hurt too!

Jack Chick: When he left was there ripping when he took off?

Elaine: There was some but not a whole lot because the pastor and Rebecca and the others that were there to help, they had loving compassionate hearts and they took their time. They didn’t force so much like so many others do. There was no forcing, you know, absolutely pushing so hard that it just rips the person apart. But there were some, yes, there were definitely some.

Jack Chick: Okay, so the key to all this whole thing was that you closed up the doorways, right?

Rebecca Brown: That is correct. And Elaine has been sealed and she has never had any demons ever since.

Jack Chick: So after eight weeks of warfare you had become veterans. You had seen just about everything under the sun hadn’t you, in the field of spiritual warfare. Now, this prepared you for the thing that was coming up later on where you had this underground operation going with these witches and so forth you’re trying to help. People would come to you with problems, and God had already put you through this, so you were experienced and you could help these people.

Rebecca Brown: Yes, that is correct. Of course, I had another year of training to complete yet. Then I set up a medical practice as the Lord had directed me close to the Satanic community. We had the privilege of bringing many people to the Lord out of the cult. But Jack, most people don’t understand the tremendous problems that anyone faces that comes out of Satanism, because you see, Satan has so many servants within the Christian churches, that they are attacked both from outside of the Christian churches and from within the Christian churches.

Jack Chick: The spies that have been planted within the churches, right?

Rebecca Brown: Well, they’re not just spies for anyone who might come out. I mean, they are the Satanists planted within the Christian churches to try and destroy them.

Jack Chick: So they’re on the alert to see anyone coming in from one of the covens, and they’re going to nail them as soon as they walk through that door then.

Rebecca Brown: Most certainly. And people that come out of Satanism to the Lord are attacked from every direction. They’re attacked at their work because there’s always someone at work who is also in Satanism and knows who they are if they work in any sizeable place. They’re attacked through the schools because there Satan has his servants throughout the school.

Jack Chick: These are kids into different covens then.

Rebecca Brown: Well yes, not only from the children, but from the teachers. Because the children of people who would come out of Satanism the teachers begin to attack the children and flunk them and accuse them of all sorts of things. They don’t have acceptance in the churches because most people hate witches. They consider witches the enemy. They don’t stop to realize that Jesus Christ loved them and died for them.

Jack Chick: Isn’t it true in school, Elaine, that when when a young kid who has just joined one of the local covens, he’s watched or she’s watched everywhere she goes, and if they talk to a Christian is that reported to the high priest or anything like that?

Elaine: Oh yes. When you’re first recruited, and that’s the most critical time of your life, be you a young person or an old person, that’s the most critical time because that time right there is when you have signed your contract in blood, that time right there is when you finally found out that there’s more to what was told to you than really was there.

Jack Chick: You’re stuck then.

Elaine: Right. And you’re being watched to make sure that you stick to exactly the rules, period.

Jack Chick: Yeah, constant surveillance then.

Rebecca Brown: Yes. Most Christians don’t want to get involved with these people because they have such a multitude of problems. (Jack: Yeah, in their own lives.) They usually lose their job, they have all sorts of financial problems because the finance is given to them through the cult disappears, so they are in need financially more, often than not they are very ill, they have tremendous emotional difficulties because of what they’re going through and what they’ve come out of, they need careful teaching, they have special needs, and the church people don’t want to be bothered with them. Most of these people really need to be taken into a Christian home and ministered to for a short while at least.

Jack Chick: And who’s going to do that?

Rebecca Brown: That’s right. Because Christians, they’re very selfish about their homes. They consider their homes their own private property.

Jack Chick: You know I can speak from experience when I hit this thing on Rome. This was about what six years ago, seven years ago, I prayed and God told me to hit the Vatican. All right, the reaction I got from my pastor friends, it was like those guys were out there saying, “Gee, I wonder if Chick’s going to get iced. Is he going to get knocked off or blown up?” A lot of Christians were watching to see. So they all backed away from me and we caught hell at Chick publications. We were knocked out of bookstores, there were harassments, terror tactics, phone calls were used against these poor little mom-and-pop operations that had Christian bookstores, and we lost 2 000 bookstores out of 3 000 from the onslaught. And the Christians backed away. See, they don’t want to tackle anything controversial.

And then I knew of another case where a young girl who was a witch got married and went to another church. And someone who was married to a good Mason, and she was a up there in the Eastern Star I guess it was, she blew the whistle on this girl who came out of witchcraft, told the pastor, he walked over to their home one night and says, “Hey don’t ever come back into my church.” So I know the battle, because I felt it my own case trying to expose Catholicism, and I can imagine what a witch has to go through here because I had been well accepted.

Rebecca Brown: Not only that, but the few people who are willing to help the people coming out of Satanism, then they themselves come under attack. (Jack: Of course.) Then they become the unpopular people.

Jack Chick: Attached by other Christians, right?

Rebecca Brown: Well, supposed Christians. The true Christians don’t attack them. But the Christians who are not committed to the Lord, or the Satanists posing to be Christians.

Jack Chick: Or weak Christians who just want to make points with the rest of the people in the church will sway whatever direction it goes. You know, the thing that sticks in my mind, they said one week about Jesus, “hosanna”, next week it was “crucify him.” (Rebecca: Exactly.) Where you’ve got weak Christians, you’ve got a mess out there. And these kids are in danger when they walk into a church. They better keep their mouths shut first of all, right?

Rebecca Brown: Well, the important thing is anyone coming out of witchcraft, they need help. It’s very difficult if not impossible for them to make it on their own. I can’t emphasize strongly enough how they need Christian fellowship. Anyone listening to this tape, please don’t get the idea that we are recommending that you not attend Christian churches, that’s not the case. What we’re trying to do is wake up the Christian churches to be aware of what’s happening. Because you see, these people, they need a strong prayer partner, they need someone who’s going to help them, who’s going to help them kick the demons out, somebody who is going to stand with them and help to teach them and train them. And Paul says, “Do not neglect the gathering of yourself together.”

Jack Chick: Yeah, but here’s another point. Okay, you’ve got Bible-believing churches across the country, people who mean business. We’ve got some real men of God out there. But we’ve got a lot of phony baloneys. We’ve got a whole segment of churches out there, they don’t even believe the Bible is the Word of God. They don’t believe the Devil exists. And some poor kid coming out of witchcraft walks up to see one of those guys, they’re going to be nailed!

Rebecca Brown: Yes. The only thing that I can say to people coming out of witchcraft is Jesus gave us an infallible test. He said look to see the fruits. A good tree does not bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. So don’t be in a hurry to confide in anyone but step back a little bit and see what kind of fruits they’re bearing. Are they bearing the fruit of being a true Christian?

Jack Chick: All right, let me give you a case where this person came out and he led, oh goodness, 120 some witches to Christ. And he took them down to one of our big local churches down here that everybody loves and raves about, and some idiot got in front of those kids and he said, “No witch can be saved.” Well, you can imagine the devastation that took place! Half of those kids od’d on drugs. Most of them are dead now as a result because this was the only hope they had. They had dared to come out of their coven. They had dared to step out. And usually, Elaine, is not this true when you sign in blood and you come out, the thing is just like joining the Mafia, you go out feet first, right?

Elaine: Normally yes. You don’t just turn your back on a coven or on Satanism and walk away free-handed. You never get off scot-free. To begin with, you sinned by serving Satan in the first place. The Bible says that quite clearly. But it also says that Jesus’ Blood is sufficient for all things, and that means it covers that contract. Like I said before in the first tape that in your little booklet, the contract, you show so plainly that Jesus’ Blood is sufficient to cover all things, and it’s not worth paper that you put your name on …

Jack Chick: All right, but what about this person who made this statement in front of these young kids coming out of witchcraft? Did he know what he was doing? Was he a plant? Was he used by the enemy to destroy these kids coming out?

Elaine: I would say he was. Because anyone who’s a true born-again believer would never tell anyone that they could not be saved, ever.

Rebecca Brown: However, there are many misguided Christians. There are many Christians who are taught wrong. And they are taught that Satan’s the enemy and therefore anybody involved in Satanism is our enemy.

Jack Chick: So we have to develop a compassion for these kids coming out of witchcraft, right?

Rebecca Brown: That is correct. Jesus said, bless those who curse you. You know, it’s a very widespread teaching in our nation today by a lot of deliverance ministers and a lot of ministers that if anyone sends a curse toward you, to double it and send it back. But in Luke chapter 8 verse 20, Jesus says absolutely clearly, “Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who despitefully use you.” And how they can justify that teaching with that Scripture verse I don’t know.

Jack Chick: Well, I’ve been guilty of that. When I first started, I found out there was a witch not too far from me. She used to light candles every night at midnight and throw whammies at me. And I felt the sting, and I felt the reaction, and I used to say, “Lord, send it back 10 full.” And I realized I was wrong. And since talking to you ladies, you told me that when I pray I should say, “Lord, I loosen these demons that come against me. I loosen them of their assignments and cast them into the dry places” or get rid of them that way.

Rebecca Brown: Yes, because you see, anytime a witch comes against a Christian, she’s immediately in trouble, or he, as the case may be. Because, for the first time, if they come against a true born again Christian, they are having to realize that they’re facing a power stronger than anything Satan can give them. And that starts them to thinking. And Satan and his demons know immediately that they have come to this realization that they’re faced with it. Now, they’re in a very dangerous position. Because if they start thinking, Satan and his demons are very quick to try and bring about their physical death before they can accept Jesus.

Jack Chick: For the witch, you mean.

Rebecca Brown: That is correct. And if you as a Christian start sending all these curses back on them, you’re just hastening their physical death and they may never have the opportunity to come to the Lord.

Jack Chick: So we’re committing murder practically when we do that. Okay now, let me ask Elaine this thing. You mentioned that when when you astral projected or moved against a real born again believer, you sent your demons out they came back and beat you up, right?

Elaine: That’s right, they did. They’d come back yelling and screaming at me, “What do you think you’re doing sending us out against a true born again believer?”

Jack Chick: But if the Christian at the other end, the receiving end of that thing, actually said, “I’ll send it back 10 full,” you could have physically killed that witch then, right, who sent them in the first place?

Elaine: Sure can!

Jack Chick: Okay, so we have to be very careful how we pray. We have to have compassion and cut down on our anger when we’re caught under heavy pressure. We know we’re under a occult attack.

Rebecca Brown: Well, the first epistle of John chapter 3 verse 15 says, “He who hates his brother is a murderer.” We have to be very careful that Satan does not plant hatred in our heart toward these people. Especially as we begin to go into the portion of the tape where we’re talking about how Satan attacks Christian churches, it’s very easy to become angry and to allow hatred to dwell in our heart for these people trying to destroy our churches. But our concern must be Christ’s concern.

Jack Chick: We must have pity and love for these people because they’re in terrible bondage. The kids don’t realize once they get into the coven the mess they are in and how dangerous it is to get out.

Elaine: Well, I know for a fact, a true story of a small coven in my area of a hundred people, exactly 100 people in this coven. It’s a very small one. This happened about two years before I accepted the Lord. (Something I can’t catch at 34 minutes 20 seconds.) And I knew the high priest personally, Robbie, he was really sweet. He’s gone on to meet the Lord. He was in a terrible fiery accident.

Jack Chick: Was that a setup from the coven?

Elaine: Oh yes. From this one hundred, he brought seventy out.

Jack Chick: You mean he was saved and then he brought these people out?

Elaine: Yes, he did. He brought 70 of these people out. Forty five of them returned to the craft.

Jack Chick: Was that from the influence of the other remaining, that was what, 30 still in the coven?

Elaine: Yes.

Jack Chick: And did they go after these 70?

Elaine: Oh my yes! They started right in on incantations, spells, threats, phone calls, all this type of thing to get them come back. So out of the out of the seventy, forty five returned. From the forty five, twenty five were killed as an example to the rest of the coven.

Jack Chick: There must have been savage murders then on these 25 then. Was it to terrorize the others who …

Elaine: Oh yes, yeah to let them know that this can happen to you whether you’re outside or inside. And if you come back now you will be killed, and if you don’t we’re going to kill you anyway type thing. Now, this left about 25 people, most of these were young people not older people. Most of these were young people out, (Jack: Stranded.) Right, yeah, just like stranded on an island, and all you have is one little jug of water between 25 people and what are you gonna do with it?

Jack Chick: Okay, so what are you gonna do? You’re out stranded like that and none of the churches want you, none of the pastors are gonna try to show you any compassion or any understanding because they don’t know about it.

Elaine: Right. Now, out of the 25, at least five were accepted into a church because they wouldn’t admit that they were ever anything to do with witchcraft of any kind.

Jack Chick: They were lucky, they kept their mouths shut, and they weren’t spotted by the witches in the churches then, right?

Elaine: Oh, well, yes and no. Because they compromised as well. Compromising means in this case, that that they would say anything, you know, they would agree with all the church laws, they would agree with all the church laws according to witches about witches, and they would not accept anything outside of the church laws, they were very much in the church laws. And or, they had money and position.

Jack Chick: But they wouldn’t lift their finger to help those other twenty of theirs.

Elaine: Oh no no, they would not.

Jack Chick: They didn’t want to get involved.

Elaine: No because these other twenty would know who they were, and if they came into the church they’d say, that’s a witch or a warlock. And these poor kids coming in trying to find answers, they’re searching, they’re what we call wanderers in the craft, they just wander. And a lot of become small groups where they hold meetings and Bible studies and things. They don’t understand everything that they’re they’re reading and everything is being taught to them. I’d say five at least will commit suicide because they cannot continue with the pressures from the craft, and from not being able to be accepted by any church. They’re not accepted by anyone. I can vouch for that myself. Churches don’t accept me as a person. I mean, I was I’m a terrible sinner, 17 years I served the wrong master. That makes me the most horrible scum the face of the earth. And that’s all right, they can have their opinion. That won’t stop me from loving them and sharing with them. But I can understand where the 20 come from, the wanderers, because they have absolutely no hope.

In other words, it’s like you hold up a candle of light in a dark dark room, and all of a sudden everybody’s excited because now there’s light in the room, and then you blow it out, and it’s pitch black again, and there’s no hope, there’s nothing, there’s no match, there’s nothing to light it with, and you have a candle, but nowhere to go, nothing to do.

Rebecca Brown: We found in our ministry, Jack, that we basically had to transport people out of the area. Because where my medical practice was situated, it was too far to commute to my church in my hometown where Elaine was delivered, although we did send a number of people down there. And that pastor helped us with the deliverance of a great number of these people. But basically we transported them out of the state so that they would have an opportunity to start a new life.

Jack Chick: For their own safety. Now, you told them to keep their mouth shut when they went out?

Rebecca Brown: No, what I advised them to do was as Paul instructed Timothy in the second epistle of Timothy. He said to Timothy, “Lay hands suddenly on no man.” And we told them that it was absolutely imperative that they seek and find Christian fellowship and that God would provide it for them. But they have to be very careful who they confided in, and they had to seek the Lord’s guidance so that He would bring them to Christians who were really faithful to the Lord who would be willing to accept them and work with them, because I can’t emphasize how important fellowship is. That’s what the body of Christ is for, it’s really necessary. But they do have to be careful because facts are facts, that’s the way the condition of the Church is today.

Jack Chick: Elaine, this brings us to the point in the tape where we want to discuss how you handle the destructions of churches. What do they do? I mean, was there a standard plan that Satan had set up for the witches to go in and make the penetrations?

Elaine: Yeah Jack, there’s really a kind of like an eight-pointed plan. There’s really more than that but there’s eight major points that you hit upon, that you’re really taught the most about. And the first is that you always go forward to make a public confession of your faith.

Jack Chick: You accepted Christ?

Elaine: Well no, you didn’t.

Jack Chick: But you made believe you did.

Elaine: Sure! You can make anyone believe that’s what you’re doing if you know how to.

Jack Chick: Did you cry?

Elaine: Oh sure.

Jack Chick: You had tears?

Elaine: Sure. You have tears and you’d be so humble and the whole bit, oh yeah, it’s a great show, yeah, ha ha! But in order to do this, you see, the reason it’s done is so that you can have a way then to break into all the church activities.

Jack Chick: You’ve got all their sympathy.

Elaine: Right, and this way you learn how about the choir when they practice, when they don’t, who’s in it, who isn’t. You learn who sings solos and who doesn’t, like duets and this type of thing. You learn who plays …

Jack Chick: You know who to play up to, right?

Elaine: Right! And who teaches what class, and who is the most solid of the Christians.

Jack Chick: Okay do you can you spot the clique first of all? Almost every church has got their cliques.

Elaine: Oh yes, Jack, you can spot them. There’s all there’s always one or two, you can spot them by the clothes they wear, the cars they drive, the jobs they have. Each church has them. There’s no getting around that, they do. And you know exactly what one to get into. You start out with the low group first and work your way into the high group.

Jack Chick:d Okay, let me ask you this. When you move in as a witch do you start making large contributions to the church?

Elaine: Oh, yes and no. Now, that depends upon the type of church you’re going into whether it’s in the bracket of where you have to have a higher income to be acceptable, you see, or lower. But if you’re moving to a church that say for instance, a church that only has about 200 people in it at first, and is a real good strong church in the Lord, but they’re poor people. You move in and you do it slowly, but then you start giving these $75 ~ $80 contributions to this project and that project, (Editor’s note: That’s roughly $200 ~ $220 USD in 2023) this kid wants to go to camp but they don’t have the fifty dollars, so you give three hundred dollars so these next four can go to camp, or whatever, and you become a very well respected and looked up to person in that small church, and there’s nothing you can’t get them to do.

Jack Chick: All right, let me ask you, could you spot any Masons or Catholics who are plants when you move into an area like?

Elaine: Oh sure. Masons are easy to spot. They like to show off their rings.

Jack Chick: Could you spot them when they don’t have the rings on?

Elaine: Yes, because they’re very flamboyant anyway. They’re very arrogant about the way they feel and the way they express their views religiously. In other words, they’re very religious.

Jack Chick: So basically we have a trinity of evil in the Christian church, witches, Masons, and Roman Catholics.

Elaine: Right.

Jack Chick: Incredible! All of them have made the penetration. Okay, let’s go on then.

Elaine: Okay, after you’ve broken into all these phases, and you have got into all the church activities and you know what’s up, what’s down, who’s in, who’s out, this kind of thing, and you also know exactly who are the real true born again believers in that church. You know beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Jack Chick: They’re the enemy, right?

Elaine: Right, and you start working on them. So you begin to bust up the prayer support of the church. You knock out the prayer base.

Rebecca Brown: Jack, I think maybe one of the very best examples we can give of how Satanists break up a prayer base of a church occurred in our own dear hometown church where Elaine was delivered. This was such a very powerful praying church. It was a type of church that two and three hundred members would come out every Wednesday night to the prayer meeting, and they prayed as one unified body. And I have been in that church when the power of prayer was so strong that literally the Holy Spirit would shake the raptors of that place. That’s how strong they were in prayer.

But there was the high priest of the coven of that city, it the capital city of the state in which we were living, who became a member of the church. And Elaine and I both knew who he was.

Jack Chick: He pulled it off and the whole church accepted him?

Rebecca Brown: Yes. We could not accuse him. It was our word against his. We had no proof, we had no writing proof as to who he was. And so he came in, he attended everything that went on within the church, he gave large contributions to the church, he was well to do. But the way he built credibility within the church was just really skillful. After he had been attending the church for about a year, he suggested that because America was facing a crisis that one of the reasons why was because people weren’t praying for our country enough. And so he stepped forward, and he established a weekly prayer group at noon for all the men to come to in order to pray for America. (Jack: Clever.) And he brought in programs as to how important it was that the Christian people should pray for America. And you see very quickly after that he became a deacon, and then he started teaching a Sunday school.

Jack Chick: Who could challenge that? Nobody!

Rebecca Brown: Well nobody could! Because it was legitimate, you see. Then he became an elder. Because of his wealth shortly he was on the board of the church. He and his wife became involved in the choir. After this, pray for America had been going on for a period of about 10 months. Then he stepped forward and said, “There’s not enough teaching as to how to teach the people in this church to effectively witness about Jesus to others. The people in the church are ignorant about this, they need to be taught. So rather than have this big prayer group, we should divide it up into discipleship groups so that the people can be taught on a small scale with this thrust of evangelism.” Well of course, everybody agrees with evangelism and he said they could be more effectively taught in a small group and that they could pray within their small groups. It was recommended that the choir be made its own separate prayer group and so they would practice during the time of the prayer meeting and they would of course have their own prayer just before their practice rather than making them stay afterwards. And as soon as that step was taken, then all these people rejoined the choir again.

Jack Chick: So they were splitting up the prayer groups completely.

Rebecca Brown: And the entire power of the church just absolutely went down the drain because there was no longer any prayer. And the discipleship groups did very little praying because their purpose was to teach.

Jack Chick: This must have been maddening for Elaine to know the techniques these people were using because she’d used them herself and couldn’t even get to the pastor to tell him, right?

Rebecca Brown: Well, we did talk to the pastor, and we tried to show him by Scripture that what was going on just wasn’t right, that the prayer base was so essential. But I mean, how could two women such as us hope to stand against this influential elder? Because the answer we always got was that this person certainly understood the importance of prayer, that if he did not, he wouldn’t have established the prayer group to pray for America.

Jack Chick: Stacked deck.

Elaine: It’s always a stack deck. That’s why those in the craft are mainly taught the eight basic principles of destroying the church. There’s many many others like I said, but these eight basic are the best out of the group I guess you could say. Once you really get your prayer support knocked out of the church, of course a lot of things are going to happen after that. And it happened fairly rapidly. And if you have a sharp eye, and you know what you’re looking for, you’ll see it happening very fast although it seems very slow but it really isn’t.

And one of them is you cause mistrust. And I mean mistrust between everybody. The pastor, you don’t trust him for some reason. There’s always something that’s scratching at the edge of you like a little rash. It itches all the time. You can’t tell what the problem is and you want to scratch and dig at it. Same thing with the pastor. And it’s not true or anything like this, it’s just a rumor that somebody shot in there and somebody picked up on it and they go on to the next person and they go on to the next person.

Jack Chick: This is to destroy the pastor?

Elaine: Right, to destroy his credibility and his message.

Jack Chick: Does anyone go to present this problem to him or discuss it with him?

Elaine: You mean with the pastor?

Jack Chick: Or is it all kept under cover?

Elaine: I know from personal experience of destroying churches that there’s only been five cases that I know out of the hundred churches that I helped to destroy that someone went to the pastor and tried to tell him that they could see that there was something wrong, and they were turned off like you turn off a TV or a radio set.

Jack Chick: He didn’t want to hear it. He couldn’t believe this was happening in his church.

Elaine: Right. He couldn’t believe this himself, either. And it wasn’t a pride thing, it was a very fact that he heard about it happening to other people, other churches, but he really didn’t think it could happen in his church because he really did love the Lord. And this man really did love the Lord!

Rebecca Brown: The problem is everybody loves to gossip. That’s a human failing.

Jack Chick: Oh not Christians! (He laughs!)

Rebecca Brown: Yes, I’m afraid it is. And everybody loves to talk about somebody else’s weakness. And this is the number one way. How easy it is to repeat what somebody’s told you about something else.

Elaine: Another one of these, and the mistrust thing, is that never, I don’t care who you are, I don’t care how much you love the Lord, if you be a man you do not go to a woman’s house by yourself to speak with or to counsel with that woman. If you be a man, you don’t have the pastor’s wife, or some of the other ladies go to his home, even help him if he’s ill, by themselves. You have them go in groups of twos or three or more but never ever alone.

Jack Chick: You mean ladies must go in groups if they’re going.

Elaine: Right, yeah. Say if a man in the church is ill, it happens quite a bit, I mean, even if a man has a wife maybe she has to work, he’s ill, and they go in to help like clean the house or take care of their children. They’d better not do it alone. Because everything is set up so that it takes that one time, that one time, and it makes it look like you’ve really done something big when haven’t done anything at all.

You teach a new prayer and a new doctrine. Now, by that I mean, you teach them how to pray, and you make sure that people always are never really up to going into the throne room of the Father. You tell them that they have to go through a series of things before they can reach the throne room of God. And if they do not match all of these series of things, then they cannot go into the thrown room of God.

Jack Chick: So you set up all these unscriptural principles, these steps then.

Elaine: Right. At the same time, you throw in a few Scriptures here and there that makes them look good. And they can’t argue with it because there is Scripture here. And you can always take Scripture and twist it just enough to make it sound just right. And most people will not look it up.

Jack Chick: So you make them all feel like they’re unworthy to go before God.

Elaine: Right. And they’re constantly having to try and find out what’s wrong in their life constantly when there isn’t anything wrong with it.

Jack Chick: God tells us to come boldly before the Throne.

Elaine: Right, and it also says that we are heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, and we have the right to go before the Throne.

Jack Chick: So the witch’s job is to tear down their self-respect and their spirituality.

Elaine: Right. We moved on from changing the message, to breaking up the unified church and family groups. By that I mean, the family should be unified according to God’s Word. Both family and church should be a unit, not broken up little segments here and there. What you do is go in and take the family and church unit and pick it apart! Children and teens don’t have to go upstairs to hear the pastor preach, take them downstairs! The teens go one place and children another. Let them cook peaches and spaghetti and have parties while the pastor is preaching the Gospel! They don’t have to hear or listen to it. Pop has to do this, mom has to do that, you break everything up and you keep it broken up. You not only keep them broken up in the church but activities outside of the church as well.

A child is going to hear the most about the Lord Jesus Christ is right there in the pew with mom and dad sitting there listening, not downstairs somewhere, not back in some nursery somewhere, not cooking pizza and having parties, they’re not going to learn about Jesus this way. Because you don’t know who’s got your kids at that time. You don’t know who has got your children. So it’s imperative that they learn to pray with you as a family group in the church and out of the church and that you stay together as a family unit. But the whole idea between behind destroying the churches is: break the family up.

The last thing that I will emphasize the most, I know it’s been said before, I will emphasize it very strongly is, there is absolutely no speaking of Satan. A witch or a warlock can use the name of Jesus anytime they so choose to do so. The thing they cannot do is claim Him as their Lord and Master. They cannot do it.

Jack Chick: They call him their Savior.

Elaine: No. All they say is that you ask them. Christians have a bad habit of saying, “Is Jesus your Lord and Master?” And anyone can say yes. You can lie about it. That’s not hard to do. You see, you’re not really claiming anything. You’re just telling an all out flat lie. And that’s the way they do it. Instead of …

Jack Chick: I see. In other words, they just say yes, they do not repeat it and say Jesus Christ is their Lord and Master. Their answer is just simply the word yes. So they’re off the hook. (Elaine: Right.)

Rebecca Brown: However many churches, when you go in for membership or seeking membership, the pastor will say to the group or the several people, “Repeat this profession of faith after me.” And a witch or a warlock can repeat after him and lie, because all they’re doing is repeating. It’s just like reading. They can get up and read the Scriptures. But if you really want to know if somebody is a Christian or not, you look them square in the eye and say, “Who is your Master? Whom do you serve? And somebody in Satanism does not dare say I serve Jesus Christ (Elaine: That’s right.) as my Lord and Master.

Jack Chick: You might blow a witch out of the water at that time, right?

Rebecca Brown: You don’t want to push them, that’s right, because if you push them to exposing themselves…

Jack Chick: Then they’re dead, right? (Rebecca: Yes) In other words, once they’ve blown their cover then they’re more no more use to the coven?

Rebecca Brown: Yes. But if there is someone who’s being a very destructive influence in the church, get them off to themselves and corner them. Don’t do it in front of other people.

Jack Chick: Not not as a public type operation.

Rebecca Brown: That is correct, that is correct. You don’t ever want to expose someone like this publicly, because if you do, the others will take them out before they have a chance to really accept …

Elaine: So you see, there’s there’s plenty of speaking of Jesus, but there is no speaking of Satan. You will not hear Satan preached, you will not hear Satan talked about because that’s a no-no. You’re liable to get all wrapped up in the wrong thing, and you just don’t want to want that to happen to your children and to your wife and to your husband in your church. I mean, after all, you won’t give him any glory. Who’s giving him glory? You’re punching him in the nose!

That’s why I’m willing to do these tapes with you, Jack, because I really want to show light on Satan. I really want to show him for what he is. Because believe me, he’s got some really powerful things coming up out there.

Jack Chick: You know, I think the listener should watch carefully. Who in the Christian circles will attack Rebecca and Elaine to destroy their credibility on the message on these tapes? More than likely, the attackers just might turn out to be Satanists or witches pretending to be believers in Christ. And it’s going to be very very interesting to watch.

But now, let’s go on to something else. Elaine, I know about 150 years ago, it was almost unheard of to have Masons in the churches. Today, it seems we have pastors that are Masons. All throughout the South back throughout the country we’ve got Masons sitting on boards. And I’ve learned a little about Masonry and Baphomet and some of the gods that they’re involved with. But I almost sense there’s a trinity of evil. By that I mean, here you have this Satanist going to a church, you’ve got Masons sitting there, and also you’ve got the undercover Catholics that come in. Now I know, I’ve met people in Masonry, they don’t know beans about the occult, they’re in the lower levels. But as you get deeper and deeper into this thing like Rivera told me that most of the material written for the 32nd 33rd degree has been written by Jesuits. Now, with your background in the occult and craft, did you sense a trinity of evil within the churches whereby you, I mean the Satanists and the Masons and the Catholics all work together? Was there a harmony some way? Could you recognize one another?

Elaine: Sure Jack. I’ll face one question at a time. We did and were able to coordinate all of our efforts so that we all worked in sync with one another.

Jack Chick: In other words, if you were going to take someone out, all three of your groups would work together?

Elaine: Yeah, primarily they would. If it was someone that you didn’t want just to (? can’t catch it) yourself, but you felt maybe that the others should know more about, then yeah, you would have been on it, and the leadership of all these coordinated efforts would get together and talk it over, and then they would decide as to which group actually would get rid of …

They’re instantly recognized by Satanists because the demons in them just as Satanists and Catholics and Masons can recognize a real true born again believer. There is a difference. Catholics and Masons and Satanists, they all use the same abilities of occultism. I don’t care what particular area they’re in, whether they’re Catholics or Masons or Satanists. Now in Catholics you’re gonna be talking about again higher ups, not these lower-down people who go to church every Sunday. And they, some of these people, really believe they’re going to go into Heaven because they don’t know they’re doing anything wrong. But these higher-ups know that they are, and they don’t care.

Jack Chick: In all groups.

Elaine: Right, in all groups, yeah. It’s the same thing with the Masons. The lower-downs really don’t understand. And the lower-downs in Satanism don’t understand. And they’re not allowed to know what goes on by the higher-ups.

Jack Chick: Well, I received a letter I want to share here that came from an individual. I led him to the Lord on the phone the other day and he sent me some material. And it’s quite startling. I’d like to read to you an excerpt from a letter I received recently from a man who was one of the top Masons in the country. This man made Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior a week before he wrote this letter to me. I will not of course give his name or location.

“When I submitted my obligation to the Masonic AASR Oriental Consistory and passed the 33rd degree, I was given a blank piece of paper trimmed in red to sign my name upon it in my own blood. That day I became more machine than man serving only my master archbishop _____ _____ _____ (name withheld) and the Pope. I embraced the force of evil so powerful that I became feared by the police, the criminal court system of my state, the Democratic party of my state and even my own master. I became so powerful in the craft of evil that the masters of the cult, Freemasonry, and ultimately my bosses, feared me more than what they hoped I would destroy. I became the living messenger of death. I finally know that I was played for a fool by the Vatican, and that Dr. Rivera is correct about the Catholic Church. I also would like to publicly denounce the Nazi Vatican plan to kill Christian Jews, and to help Dr. Rivera and yourself to expose the truth in this matter. I’m enclosing enough hard evidence to prove what I am saying is true. I have set up and maintained false churches, occult groups, the West German Nazi party, and much much more in the name of the Vatican. Now finally my eyes are open to the truth of Dr. Rivera, the man that I had been ordered to murder. It is almost insane that this very person should lead me, his executioner, to Christ.”

Incredible letter! This is full-scale war. Satan is tearing our churches to shreds. People are talking about revival. I don’t see it. I see the great falling away. And I think the one thing that many generals have said when you’re surrounded on three sides, attack! I think one of the greatest Christian writers this past century was Jessie Penn-Lewis. She made this statement:

“If the Prince of Darkness would leave us alone, we would leave him alone. But until he ceases to attack the church of Christ, God’s servants must speak against him as well as against all unrighteousness.

We’re talking a lot about Satan, but we must know his tactics. And God shows us in His Word, for instance in second Corinthians the second chapter verse 11 the Word of God says, “Lest Satan should get an advantage over us for we are not ignorant of his devices.” So we must be aware of his deceptions.

So if we turn to second Corinthians the 11th chapter verses 13 and 14, the Word of God tells us,

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

So far in these tapes we’ve been trying to shed light on Satan’s deceptive attacks, but God’s Word commands us to fight him. In James chapter 4 verse 7 the Word of God tells us,

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Now we want to show you scripturally some of the ways on how to resist the devil. Rebecca, how can you really get the Gospel across to someone who has been snared by Satan to make them understand their need for Jesus?

Rebecca Brown: The first thing we have to keep in mind, Jack, is that Scripture in 2 Corinthians chapter 4 verse 4. Let me read that. It says,

 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

We first of all have to have an understanding that anyone who has participated in occult activities such as Satanism, Masonry, Catholicism, Dungeons and Dragons, rock music, anything like this, that they have directly opened a doorway in their life to an inflow of demonic power. And the Scripture tells us plainly in this Scripture that their minds are blinded. And we have to understand that that blinding is a demonic binding. And we are given authority and power in Jesus Christ to trample on snakes and scorpions as in Luke 10 verse 19. In other words, we are given power and authority by Jesus Christ to bind the demons who are blocking these people’s minds. Now if we don’t do that, we’re not going to get the Gospel across to them.

Let me give you a couple of examples from my own medical practice. One of the most dramatic examples of this was when I was a resident in charge of the intensive care unit. An 80 year old man was brought into the intensive care unit one day with a very severe heart attack. I went in to examine him as I did with all the patients that came in, and I realized that apart from a pure miracle from the Lord that his chances of living longer than about 48 hours were just zero because of the type of heart attack he had had.

When I finished examining him the old man turned to me and he said, “Young lady, how am I doing?” And I said, “Well sir to be very honest with you, not very well. And he began to cry and he said, “Please don’t tell me that, I can’t stand it.” And I asked him I said, “Sir, what’s the matter? Are you afraid to die?” And he said, “Yes.” And I said, “Well, do you know what’s going to happen to you after you die?” And he turned with great anger and he looked me square in the eye and he says, “Young lady, I’m going to go straight to hell.” Well, I was really surprised because very few people are that honest. And I said, Well sir, let me share with you how to avoid this terrible end.” And he said, “Don’t bother, I’ve heard it all before, it doesn’t do any good.” And I said, “Well, like it or not, you’re going to hear about Jesus one more time.” And in a situation like that you share the Gospel in about four sentences and no more. And he began to get very agitated, and finally I said to him, “Sir, just say three words after me” ‘Jesus save me.'” And he said, “I can’t. I can’t.” And I said, “No you’re right. You can’t. You are literally blocked from saying those words, aren’t you?” And he was so surprised and he looked at me and he says, “How do you know?” And I said, “Because I’ve been in God’s training school.” I said, “Now, do you know who’s blocking you?” And he said, “Yes I do, Satan and his demons.” And so I told him I said, “Well, I have good news for you, I have power and authority in Jesus Christ to bind Satan and his demons so they can no longer block you.” And I directly out loud addressed, I said, “Satan and you demons who are blocking this gentleman from committing his life to Jesus, I take authority over you right now in the name of Jesus, and I bind you in His Name so you can no longer block him.” And the old man just started to weep, and he took my hand and he made one of the most beautiful prayers of confession that I have ever heard, and asked Jesus into his life.

In talking to him afterwards, he told me that he had been a sailor in World War One and he’d gotten over into the Philippines, and he got in a big fight with some of the locals there who were heavy into voodoo, and they placed a hex on him. And the result of this hex was the binding of his will and his mind so that he literally could not get his mouth to say the words “Jesus, I want You and need You as my Savior.” He couldn’t will to do it. And he told me that for 50 years he had been seeking for salvation because he knew that’s what he needed, but he hadn’t come across anyone who knew to take up the power and authority that Jesus Christ has given to us.

Let me give you some other more subtle examples. Another example is a 18 year old girl that came into the emergency room one night when I was working there as the doctor. Her complaint was she was so depressed that she felt that if she didn’t obtain help that she would commit suicide. And I sat down and talked to her for a while. And this young lady had been raised in a solid Christian home, she had been brought up and attended church all of her life, and I told her I said, “Well you know, what you really need is Jesus in your life. Nothing is ever going to get straightened down until you make Him your Lord and Master.” And her answer was, “Well, I’m just not ready. I’m just not ready.” And this is the answer that you hear so many times when you share the Gospel with someone. And our tendency as Christians is to back off and think, “Well, I’m not going to get too pushy.” So I just looked her square in the eye and I said, “I bind you demons that are binding” – and then I gave her name – “in the name of Jesus you can no longer afflict her mind or her will.” And she looked at me so startled and she said, “What did you say? And I said, “Well, never mind. I’ll just come back to that in a few minutes.” And I talked about something entirely different for about 10 minutes. Then I came back to the subject and I told her I said, “You know, you admitted yourself that you knew that you really needed Jesus in your life but you just weren’t ready yet. How about praying to accept Him right now?” And she looked at me and this incredible expression of joy came over her face and she said, “You know, I can, I can now.”

I didn’t have a lot of time to go into her background, but later on I discovered through further contact with her that the doorway that she had opened had been a one weekend experimentation with street drugs which was done at a slumber party about five years previously when she was about 13 years old. The kids had experimented with street drugs, and she had opened the door to Satan. And she was bound, she was demonically bound, and she had good Bible believing parents, and she attended a good Bible believing church, but she was demonically bound.

Jack Chick: This is going on all over the country, isn’t it?

Rebecca Brown: Absolutely. Look at all the kids that are demonically bound through their participation in rock music. Think how many kids, the large percentage of kids rock music reaches.

Jack Chick: Amazing. Let me ask you Rebecca, how can a Christian parent whose children are involved with D & D (Dungeons & Dragons) and rock music deal with it?

Rebecca Brown: Well, there’s four basic ways to attack this. The very first thing is you, the parents, need to realize that their children are literally bound by demonic forces as I was just discussing. They have to understand that they can talk to their kids about the evils of rock music or D & D or whatever until they’re ready for their grave, and the kids are never going to understand it. It’s just like there’s a scrambler on their brain. They can look straight at them. The kids can repeat right back to what they say and yet it’s just not getting through. And I’m sure a lot of people listening to this tape will understand exactly what I’m talking about. And that’s a literal demonic wall that’s put there. And you parents who have made Jesus Christ your Lord and Master, you have the authority to rise up and bind the demons that are binding your kids. And this may be something you’re going to have to do every day for days until you get a breakthrough because it depends upon the severity of the binding.

Now, the second thing that you as parents need to recognize is you need to recognize that there are certain things that we call familiar objects. Let me define a familiar object a little more clearly, Jack. By that I mean something to which demons have legal ground to cling to. This is an object that has been used in occult rituals. For instance. if you will recall in the Book of Acts when Paul brought so many people to the Lord out of Satanism, they came together and they burned all of their scrolls and their occult objects which was equal to a very large amount of money. Well, the same thing holds true today. Every rock music record and tape has a demon attached to it. Elaine spoke about that earlier that they went down and put demons onto the records and tapes. The reason why it’s legal ground is because the purpose of the tapes is to serve Satan and to advance Satanism. Anything used in occult rituals is a familiar object. Parents, anything at all that has to do with the Dungeons and Dragons game, that sort of thing, those are also familiar objects. Demons are attached to it.

But don’t just take my word for it. Let me show you some Scriptures to back this up because everything has to go back to God’s Word. There’s just too many, we can’t read them all, but I’ll read a couple that pertain to it.

The first is in Deuteronomy chapter 7 verses 25 and 26. And this is the Lord talking to the children of Israel as they’re going in to destroy the Canaanites. And as you will recall, the Canaanites were destroyed because they all worship demons. They worship Satan, and that’s why God told the children of Israel that He was having them destroyed because their wickedness was so bad. So this is what the Lord has to tell them. He says,

“The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire. Thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them nor take it unto thee lest thou be snared therein.”

Now what’s going to snare them? The demons on the objects. Continuing with the Scripture.

“For it is an abomination to the LORD thy God. Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.”

All right, now where do I get the idea that there’s demons on these? Well, let’s hook it up with the New Testament Scripture in first Corinthians chapter 10 verses 19 and 20. This is what Paul is saying,

“What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.”

So you see, all of the idols, and really that’s what rock records are, as idols, Dungeons and Dragons, anything to do with the occult, has a demon behind it. The Scripture makes it very plain.

Jack Chick: All right, let me ask you, remember when Joshua was moving against Jericho, remember? Okay, this fellow took the garment, and he put jewel, or not jewels but money in it, and he buried it in his tent. Now that was unclean, wasn’t it?

Rebecca Brown: Yes. If you will recall in that Scripture, Jericho was such an evil city that the Lord commanded Joshua that they weren’t to take any spoils from the city, that everything from the city was to be totally destroyed right down to cattle and sheep, everything there was polluted. It was all polluted by Satanism. And when Achan took the thing into the camp of Israel, he brought the enemy right into the camp. And then when the children of Israel tried to go out for the next battle they were completely defeated. And the same thing is true for Christians. If they don’t clean out their homes and they get rid of all these objects, I tell you something else: rosaries, crucifixes, masonic rings, signs, symbols, all this sort of stuff, again, this is Satan’s property and we need to clean out our homes.

Jack Chick: So someone who comes out of Catholicism, if they don’t get rid of this junk then they’re going to be hit, right?

Rebecca Brown: They’re going to have problems, yes. Yes they need to clean out their homes. Because after all, worshiping Mary is an abomination unto the Lord. And that’s in essence what a rosary is for, they pray to Mary in all of this, and the Lord says don’t have it in your house because it’s a cursed thing, and you’ll become cursed just like it.

Jack Chick: Because the demons are actually behind it.

Rebecca Brown: That’s correct. And that’s the reason why the Satanists go and do incantations to place demons upon these objects. So once the parents have cleaned out their homes, then they’re in a much stronger position. Now parents, I would add a word of caution here. If you have children that are up age 15, 16 and and so on, you can’t just go into their bedroom and start sweeping everything out without sitting down. You have to sit down and communicate with these kids first. Bind the demons first. Spend time in prayer first.

Then I would strongly suggest if they’re into something like rock music, sit down and listen to a record with them, examine the lyrics to the songs. Your children will be embarrassed because they know these lyrics are rotten and disgusting. Same way with the Dungeons and Dragons material. Sit down and examine what it is your children are playing with, because when they get up to be that age and you just go and arbitrarily sweep everything away without giving them any kind of a reason, you’re going to be creating a lot of rebellion for yourself. You need to handle everything in love.

Jack Chick: And rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.

Rebecca Brown: That’s right, that’s right. Then something that parents often overlook, the third point, is their tremendous position of authority before God to counter-petition Satan.

Jack Chick: What do you mean counter-petition?

Rebecca Brown: Okay, let’s look at some Scriptures. I want to show you that Satan is daily standing before God asking Him for various people on the earth. And parents, when your children deliberately participate in something that belongs to Satan such as the occult or rock music, then legally Satan has a right to stand there before God and say, “See so-and-so? Now that that child belongs to me.”

Jack Chick: Well. that ties in with Job! Satan went before God and discussing Job before he made his attack.

Rebecca Brown: That’s right. Satan in the first chapter of Job, we won’t take the time to read it all, but it very plainly talks about Satan going before God.

Jack Chick: He had to have permission to attack.

Rebecca Brown: That is right. He had to petition God to attack. And the same thing is true for every human being. Satan has to petition God.

Jack Chick: In other words, Satan petitioned to sift Peter, is that right?

Rebecca Brown: Yes. Let’s look at that Scripture. I think that would be a good one to read. And that’s found in Luke chapter 22 verse 31. Jesus is talking to Peter. It says,

“And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.”

Jack Chick: Well you know Rebecca, I see all these people out here who are not committing themselves to Christ daily. They’re not putting on the full armor. Their kids are into drugs and they’re into rock music. We’ve got a nightmare in these churches, haven’t we?

Rebecca Brown: Yes we do. But you see, Christians need to understand that these four principles, and we’re to the third one now, applies not only to children under parents, but we as Christians can also petition for souls out there, specific souls.

Jack Chick: So that’s what you mean by counter-petitioning Satan! (Rebecca: Yes.) So we stand up and go before the throne of God and say, “Lord, we counter petition Satan. Don’t let him have that child, or, let him take his hands off that that child.

Rebecca Brown: That’s right. And let’s look just a little bit further here because some people will say to me, “Well, Satan no longer has access to Heaven. Now, I know that there’s always going to be some argument over this and I’m not here to argue, but I would just present to the listener some Scriptures to think about. Not until the 12th chapter of Revelation do we have a record of Satan being cast down out of Heaven. And then it says in Revelation 12:10:

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Satan must be up there accusing us now according to that verse.

Jack Chick: Thank God for the blood!

Rebecca Brown: Yes. Now, parents need to understand if Jesus Christ is not your Lord and Master then none of this applies to you. That’s the first thing that has to occur, a parent has to come to Christ. But we’re in a tremendous position of authority in Jesus Christ in being joint heirs with Him. I’ve heard a lot of people make the remark to me, “Well, I need to get prayed up in order to be effective in prayer.” No you don’t. You are made worthy to come into the throne room of God by the Blood of Jesus Christ. You are not made worthy to come into the throne room of God by any of your own works. And we need to really just stand in faith on that Scripture in Hebrews chapter 4 verses 15 and 16 where it says,

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

We have the right to go boldly into the throne room of God and petition Him. Parents, you have the right to go in and say, “Father, in the Name of Jesus I counter petition Satan. I, as a joint heir with Christ, have that legal right. Satan cannot have my child.” You as a believer can go and say, “Father, I counter-petition Satan” for whatever sinner you’re praying for. “Satan cannot have this person. I counter-petition Satan for him that he will at least have an opportunity freed from demonic interference to hear the Gospel that he can make a realistic decision. And we need to pray that way. That’s true intercession.

Then the last thing that we can do, not only in the home, parents for their children, but we can also do for other Christians, is to stand in the gap for them. You may recall earlier on in the first tape we read that Scripture in Ezekiel 22:30-31. But perhaps it would be best to review it again here. In Ezekiel 22 verse 30 and 31 it says,

And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Our desire is to stand in the gap for our children and for other sinners in order that God will not have to bring judgment down upon them. And the Lord will show each one of you listening to this tape further just what standing in the gap means. It is spiritual warfare, it is intercessory prayer, it is binding Satan and the demons and taking authority over them, it’s all three. But ask the Lord to stand in the gap to allow you to stand in the gap for someone in order that Satan can no longer blind their mind that they can see their need for Jesus. This is a real key.

Jack chick: And if someone has a feeling they should be praying for someone, they should instantly go to prayer for them, shouldn’t they?

Rebecca Brown: Yes. Many times the Lord will awaken you and you won’t even know exactly what you’re to pray for the person, but just start praying anyway because the Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit will intercede for us. Many has been the time when I said, “Lord, I know I’m supposed to pray for this person but I don’t know exactly what their needs are” and just ask the Holy Spirit to intercede for me. And I know He has.

Jack chick: Rebecca, where do you think the primary area is that Satan strikes or attacks every human being?

Rebecca Brown: I think to find the answer to that we need to go to second Corinthians chapter 10 and look at verses 3 to 5. Paul says,

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

I believe, Jack, that the first place and the main place where Satan attacks everyone is through the mind. If we look at Romans chapter 12 and verse 2 Paul says,

“And be not conformed to this world: but be transformed.” How? “By the renewing of your mind.”

It is our responsibility as Christians to scrutinize every thought that goes through our mind. There’s very few people that control their thought life. They just let thoughts go through their mind however they happen to flow through.

Jack Chick: Including fantasies.

Rebecca Brown: Yes, yes. But this is one of the great areas that Paul tells us that we have a responsibility to bring every thought into captivity, to make it obedient to Jesus Christ.

Now, there are three sources of thoughts in our minds. One is of course from us, those of us that are Christians. The second source is from the Holy Spirit. And the third source is from Satan. I think the Scriptures make it very plain that Satan is able to put thoughts in our minds. That’s how he communicates with us. He is able to inject a thought into our mind just the same as a doctor would inject a shot of medication into someone’s body.

Jack Chick: Well, don’t you feel that when a person wakes up in the morning the first thing they should do is commit the day to the Lord?

Rebecca Brown: Yes, the first thing they should do is bring their mind onto the Lord.

Jack Chick: I find myself when I get up, I’m very rebellious. I don’t want to think about the Lord, I don’t want to pray or anything, and it’s a real battlefield to say, “Lord, I submit.”

Rebecca Brown: But the thing you need to understand, Jack, is that’s not you. Those rebellious thoughts about “I don’t want to pray, I don’t want to submit myself,” that’s not you. Just because it starts with an “I”.

Jack Chick: That’s the enemy then.

Rebecca Brown: That’s correct. There’s many times when just such similar thoughts have been going through my own mind. And in the past, I don’t know if you’ve ever done this or not, but I would say to myself, “Oh Rebecca, shut up!” But it doesn’t do any good. The thoughts keep right on going. And why doesn’t it do any good? Because in essence what I’ve been doing is I’ve been resisting Satan in my own strength. But when I begin to recognize that those thoughts aren’t from me but they were placed there by Satan and his demons, and I bring the power of Jesus Christ to bear in the situation, and out loud I say, “Satan and you demons, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus, I will not have those thoughts in my mind. I command you in the name of Jesus to take them and go,” immediately you have victory. Every sin, every temptation to sin is presented to us first in thought form.

This brings up another point. A lot of people think that Satan and his demons can read our minds. I do not believe that there is a Scripture basis for that. If you recall, there is a Scripture in Jeremiah where the Lord says that the human heart is deceitful above all things and who can know it. Only God can know the thoughts and intentions of the heart, only God can it says.

Then in Hebrews chapter 4 and verse 12 it talks about the Word of God being quick and powerful, and that it is capable of discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. But nowhere does it say that Satan can do that.

Jack Chick: All right, well let me ask you this, Rebecca. What if you see a mind reader. He’s standing before an audience. You know this man is Satanic, and someone’s in the audience, and he stands up and he reads their mind. How does he do that?

Rebecca Brown: Well, it’s very simple. Because he makes some leading comments and he says, “Now I’m going to read what you’re thinking,” he sends a demon to inject a thought or a series of thoughts into the person’s mind, they can’t help but receive those thoughts, I mean they come. And then the mind supposed mind reader simply repeats back what he knows the demon put in there.

Jack Chick: Okay, and someone is unsaved, the demons that are residing in him then can relate the birth, the date, and so forth, all kinds of information.

Rebecca Brown: Well sure they can. Because Satan knows everything about everybody except what goes on in their heart. Only God knows what goes on in the heart. I think Scripture is very plain about that. Just like there’s a lot of Christians are deceived because they have received various prophecies given by Satanists within the Christian churches. I had a young woman tell me just the other day, “Well this person knew things about me that there’s no way possible they would have known, so therefore it must have been from God.” But she was completely overlooking the fact that Satan and his demons would have known that information.

Jack Chick: I heard a sad story where this young couple had gone to Hawaii, and it was an absolute disaster. And they came back to that church, and they said to the lady who had given the prophecy that they were going to go and be prosperous. And they said, “Why did you tell us this?” She said, “I don’t even remember giving such a prophecy.” So that was certainly not of the Lord. Christians better be very careful.

Rebecca Brown: Yes. They don’t understand. Again it’s because of a lack of understanding as to how Satan and his demons can work. That’s also the reason why Jesus gave us the example of rebuking Satan out loud because Satan cannot read our minds. If we rebuke him silently in our minds he’s not going to hear us.

Jack Chick: I’m sorry we’re out of tape and this ends our interview. I appeal to the listener to give their lives to Christ because without Him there is no hope. And I beg anyone who’s getting involved with the occult to get out as soon as possible. And if you join a coven, chances are you’ll come out feet first.

For further information please write:

Freedom Ministries
Box 4009
16958 Bear Valley Road
Victorville, California
92392

Thank you for listening! May God richly bless you. Bye bye.

Webmaster’s note: Please understand that because this interview was recorded in 1986, the address above may not be good anymore.

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